# 5: Jed and Karl Lipsky: Family Loggers and State Representative

We had the pleasure of  interviewing State Representative for the Lamoille-1 District Jed Lipsky alongside his son Karl. We explore the challenges and rewards of running a family logging business and what the future looks like for the industry as a whole. Jed’s service as a politician on the state level provides a unique perspective examining the issues that impact the Stowe community.

Transcript

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Hey everybody, welcome to episode five on this November 5th election day. We thought that this episode would have a lot of importance as folks are headed to the election booths today to cast their votes. We've got Jed and Carl Lipsky. Jed Lipsky is our state representative representing Stowe locally in the statehouse. And the issues that Jed brings to light in this episode, although in Stowe, we think we've live in this bubble and we don't face a lot of the same issues that maybe nationally you hear about from other places across the country but these issues are facing us here locally in Stowe and in Vermont every day. When you listen to this podcast, try and think about those types of issues, and it may broaden your mind into the kinds of impacts that everyday decisions and the future of Stowe have on all of our lives here. Yeah. Just to touch on what Mike said, with it being election day, we thought this was good timing just for all of us as Stowe residents and visitors to Stowe to reflect on. The issues that impact you and your daily lives in stow and Jed and Carl, just give us a really good backstory and overview of the logging practice and some of the many challenges that lead to. The sustainability of the practice and how important it is for all of our lives every day. And we also touch on the issue of sustainability in Stowe and trying to find that balance of growth and development within this small unique mountain town while also preserving the history and the sense of community. So we hope you all tune in and enjoy this episode number five with Jed and Kara Lipsky on Election Day. Welcome listeners to episode five of the Octagon podcast. My name is Ted Thorndike and I'm joined here by my co host, Mike Carey. We have today a legendary father son duo here in Stowe. We're thrilled to have them here. Jed Lipski and his son, Carl Lipski. So without further ado, we're just going to jump right in and we'll start with Jed. obviously you've run a logging business in Stowe for many years. How did it all start? How did you get into logging? yeah. Thank you, Ted. I actually, didn't start in Stowe, but I, did start coming to Stowe in 1951. And, as a kid, behind the Green Mountain Inn, there was Burt's Sawmill. There was a mill pond, ranks of logs, and, we came here to ski, and it was, But there was a sawmill behind the Green Mountain Inn and that was always a big focus. But in rural Berkshire County, one of the hill towns where I grew up, there was a sawmill in the town. and logging was part of the culture. It was all around me. Small farms. A lot more rural than Stowe down there, What got me started in logging was that I wasn't a very good student. My brother was quite a scholar. He was a year older. And, so I just played in the woods all the time. Did sports, of course, love winters and stow. But, I went to the University of Colorado and then, moved to Bonneville, Vermont when I was 20. And that was also a logging town. And a lot of the friends, which remind me of my childhood, were, logging families. Now the Stratton Corp had, three or four years earlier, had built the ski hill there in Bonneville, town of Wynn Hall. So that was a draw, but, I started going, working in the woods with, the Salo family and the Howes and a lot of the local loggers. and I found that to be most challenging and quite honestly, most romantic, way of living as opposed to a more academic or professional path. So that's how it began. Cool. Very cool. I don't know, maybe Carl step in here. What's a logger even do? Like when I think of logging I think of paper mills in Maine, but what's a Vermont logger do? they're really Selectively harvesting timber out of the forest to Keep growth going, next generation trees, trees that are aging out, get rid of them and recycle them, use them for lumber, use them for paper product or firewood and keep the forest growing. and I think that's maybe something that not everybody's aware of is that, selective harvesting is important for forest growth. Is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. So as far as, the wood that you're harvesting, Mike mentioned wood coming from Maine. A lot of it does, maybe go to paper mills, the wood that you've harvested, where does it usually go? Does it go to, construction wood or? Yeah. Ted, let's, because a lot of viewers have so little understanding of the history of land use in Vermont or broader New England in general, you have to understand that most of the settled land for the last couple hundred years was, turned into sheep farming and involved clear cutting pretty much, maybe over 80 percent of Vermont for sheep farms. And, so the forest products, lumber for furniture making, or there were water powered mills for 100 years or 150 years. So a lot of that development in the forest product, mostly lumber, but that included clapboard mills, shingle mills, lumber mills, hardwood for furniture, hard, softwood for pine, all that clearing that took place, utilize forest products, or forest resources. Then this thing's changed in Vermont. when I started logging, There are over 535 sawmills in Vermont. Wow. We have under 17 now. That's an attrition rate of about 96%. But then convert to dairy and lumbering were the industries. And then in the late 50s, post World War II, tourism and the ski industry started eclipsing. and impacting the culture of Vermont. So let's say by 1960, there were new areas like Stratton, like Sugarbush, Killington in the early 60s, Jay Peak. there were dozens and dozens of small ski areas prior to that, before World War II and just after, but that changed the history and, industry of Vermont. Yeah. So that gets to Carl's point, where we are today. He's coming in as a young man, a second generation logger and the glory days, and I would travel, I'd cut logs in Pennsylvania, New York state, Connecticut, Vermont, Massachusetts. and there was, global markets for all the products from high quality hardwood veneer down to furniture mills and pulp for paper. There were no pulp mills in Vermont, so that would get shipped out. Today there's a different focus. We're concerned about climate change. We're concerned about carbon, about our footprints. So those of us still hanging in as the working lands in the forest need sawmills or local markets. So we're not getting all of our material from Asia or Western Canada or Western U. S. So it's gotten very complex. Yeah. Sounds like it. it's, not a growth business like it once was, but there's obviously still a good business to be had. You've gone into this, like what brought you to join your dad? similar to dad, academics weren't my strong suit, kind of athletics, sports, hockey, soccer. And then in college I got into rowing, which kind of sparked an aerobic, love for certain sports. And, but getting out of college, that was a opportunity to make a living. work with dad and I enjoyed it. I love working outside. I like labor. I like, yeah, the whole process of it. Walking jobs. But, yeah. Logging. So teaming up with dad, we do a lot less selective harvesting as Vermont's kind of growing and developing. We're, we're clearing house lots and cutting views and doing residential tree removals where we can bill X amount for jobs and, cover all of our expenses, afford to live here and also keep the wood and, do the same thing. Use it for firewood, bring it to sawmills and bring it to market. But, I've seen How much, the practice has changed. Yeah. It sounds like you guys have had to pivot a little bit, diversified, adapt. Would you say? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Diversification and kind of a little different, yeah, with tree removal and site clearing. So are you guys doing less logging or hardly, definitely less logging. I wouldn't say hardly at all, but, as, 80 percent of our work turned into site clearing and tree removal versus 20 percent selective harvest or something like that. So a pretty significant change. Yeah. And I would imagine, less huge expensive equipment needed. Yeah. No, a chipper, chip truck, mini excavator. Obviously we still, dad still has a log truck to pick up wood and it's all, it's expensive. it's definitely a lot of trucks and equipment. Yeah. Mike and Ted, there's a lot of lore and history and culture that goes around logging because it, before the American Revolution, it's what, settlers did as they tried to create villages. businesses, industry, ports, wharfs, homesteads, farmsteads, and it's been going on for over 350 years. But Carl brings up a good point, but you need to understand that the Loddon community is one of the most, we watch dairy farms, small dairies go out regularly and it's a bit of a crisis. certainly for those families, certainly for the landscape. But what you have is larger farms, buying up the more vulnerable farms, increasing their herd, and so we still have a lot of agricultural production. Unlike farmers, loggers don't own the forests. They are Really the bottom of the food chain. They have special skills, a lot of grit and heart and they take a lot of risk just physically It's considered the most dangerous profession in North America even today But if things go south or the markets go south They don't have land to lean back on. Where's Farmer has a generational farm. So what we're experiencing in Vermont, I was just in New York state. I sit on the board of the Northeastern Logger Association base covers about nine or 10 States based at old Forge, New York, but all over the country and certainly in the Northeast and every state. There's an aging out of the logging force and we're desperate to get young people in. Here's the hitch. Carl brought diversification into our model because I used to log 11 months a year. You always had different sites that were not wet, didn't require frozen ground or different species. Are not sellable during hot weather. Others aren't, there are a lot of market conditions, but, what's happened is, and sitting in the legislature and sitting on the ag and forestry committee, I interact with loggers from all over our region, definitely all over the state. And they're one of the more vulnerable. segments of our society, and they're diminishing. So what Carl brought was excavation work, stone work, any kind of value you bring where you are paid for your skills and the equipment that you bring. That's sustainable, especially in a resort community like we live in. but commercial logging is diminishing. I'm looking out at the Worcester Ridge. There's a whole lot of controversy about active forest management in this, 21, 000 acre of public land on that Ridge and their new management plan. So you need to understand that the modern lager today is having a whole lot of responsibilities, including number one is protecting water quality to make sure no disturbance or turbidity enters any of the waterways or of the state of Vermont, whether it's the Champlain watershed or the Connecticut River watershed. it, whether you're a farmer or a logger, none of your practices are, is it acceptable to, disturb any of the waters of Vermont? So water quality, soil productivity, wildlife. Habitat, songbird habitat, migratory bird habitat. let's talk about the carbon cycle. It's a very complex part of our ecosystem, but critical, outdoor recreation, as I know for all of us and you three in particular, it's a very important part of your. Physical health, your mental health, backcountry ski trail cutting. Exactly. The joy you get and what brings a lot of people to Vermont. Yeah. And, I failed to mention a thing called forest products, like that are going into making paper for books or for toilet products, for medicines, for, construction for furniture and, all those are renewable products. So the responsibility to manage in a way that enhances wildlife, enhances, and doesn't conflict with outdoor recreation, protects water quality, makes the forest be the natural sponges, protect sensitive areas, wetlands, vernal pools, rare and endangered species. The responsibility of the lager in the 21st century and the late 20th century, most people have no clue that these are all considerations. When we go in the woods at dark and don't get out till dusk, all these things are responsibilities. including the risk of actually extracting the wood. There's another thing that affects the viability of logging, and that has to do with, oh, use this low ground pressure tracked or bogey tracked equipment because it reduces disturbance of soil, protects water quality more. Oh, but it's 700, 000 for this harvester and 600 for this forwarder. No young person can walk into a bank and borrow 50 grand to start a logging company. They got to borrow 1. 5 and they're not qualified. it's bad. It's way too risky financially. Yeah. So all these factors, the environmental and climate. Responsibilities with the economics make it really challenging. This is where Carl has expanded on four fronts. And it's kept me, working at, my mid to late seventies, I didn't have the luxury of, having stock portfolios or whatever, however, envision people supposed to gain security or wealth. You just, whatever you make, you put back into repairing your equipment or helping educate your family or your raise a family. And, yeah, there's a lot in there. It's become very complex transition to the next generation gives me incredible amount of joy. I've had a very interesting life. It's been an international life, been all over the, but I've never met a more humble, hardworking, kinder group of people. Yeah. They're tough. Some of them are really brilliant and a lot of them left school in the, after eighth grade. But, There's no group of people I've ever worked with. You go in, risk your life day after day, month, year after year with these people. And, to me, they're the real salt of the earth. And, I, I don't, there's no other group that I'd rather, that I find. actually is interesting. Yeah. Is I bet is the world that I've spent the last 60 years in. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. you talk about even just the risk, we haven't even talked about the risk you put yourself into doing this work. have you ever had a situation, Yeah. Coincidentally enough, up at a Teddy Thorndyke's parents house, I wasn't there, but my younger brother was. And, I was coaching skiing up on Saturday afternoon on Mansfield, got a call from my younger brother said, dad's at the hospital, of course my gut just drops. And, he continued to explain he's okay, but, was, A log had gotten shot between the, the frame of the skidder and the wheels and it gets bowed almost like a rainbow under pressure and dad had jumped out to do a relief cut and the whole thing popped and snapped and it shattered and pinned him again, both his ankles shattered, pinned him against the ground. my younger brother cut the log off and and carried you into the skidder and helped you in the hospital, but yeah. That was that was probably the, that was that Thorndike job. Yeah. I've never really talked about this because I knew when I was doing the cut to relieve this skidder, I could have released my hitch and driven off, but I put two skidder bridge panels over a little drainage that was about half the width of this coffee table, went from a small seat to nowhere. But I had an ethic where I did not want to create mud. I could have slipped off that skidder bridge panel, released, backed up and picked them up. But my sense of responsibility, Best practices was, I don't want to do that. I'm just gonna take the risk. The worst call I ever made for surgeries, 20 some fractures and, didn't know if I'd ever walk right or work again. I took a risk that was absolutely unnecessary. And most people would just say, the heck with it, we'll gather it up. And at the end of the day, when you close out the job, you make a water bar and by May, no one will even know there was a skidder in there, your mistakes. And that was an expensive one. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. It does outline the risk involved in that profession. I, I know I sit behind a computer every day, so it certainly puts things in perspective for me. we're just going to pivot a little bit. when did you eventually, make that move to, Hey, I'm going to move here full time and raise a family. that happened about 1998, bought some land here in 99, built a house and moved here. to be clear, we stopped my early childhood. My mother got ill, passed away and we stopped coming to Stowe, but we had such a passion as a family for Mount Mansfield in the fifties, my whole life, I wanted to be a stow kid. wasn't able to happen. because of the work that my father had down in the Berkshires. Many years later, I've, three sons, we had become more of a hockey family, but we still would come up from when they were very young, ski at Stowe. But I had a chance, I still, I had a farm in Duxbury, Vermont in the 70s and the 80s, logged here, ski raced here, did. But we had a chance to move, and it was a dream come true. If I wasn't a true Stowe kid in my childhood, my kids could be. And, so that for me was a dream came, come true. And they had always valued their time in Stowe, even when they were very little. So that's given me so much joy. It was. One of the best decisions I ever made, when you really love a community, you love the landscape, the heritage, and, the offerings, whether it's equestrian or bicycling or hiking or skiing, and for me, I just needed forest to work in, and, so it was 99. 99. That's when we bought land, started building a house. Yep. It was really 2000. When we were here. And, do you have a question for Carl? Was your dad tough or was he a pushover growing up? Oh, man. I guess there was, a little bit of both, really. It was difficult to make him angry, but if you did it, it was, it was a little, you were aware he was angry. Oh yeah. Oh, he was, for the most part, he was very easy going and yeah. Cool. Yeah. So Carl, what, obviously I grew up in Stowe as well. But, yeah, what was it like? I know you talked about, playing a lot of sports. But, that was, this was a few years ago. what was Stowe like? What was it like growing up here? Boy, yeah. So that was the end of 6th grade. I moved up, in the summer between 6th and 7th grade. I guess instantly, our, was our real estate. our realtor was a Rick Carrick, Rick Alan Thorndike, Alan first and then Rick. Yeah. yeah, like Teddy Carrick was in my grade. So got introduced to kids in my grade. we would, we would bike to town. Back when there was like a skate park at Jackson Arena, I rollerbladed, but a lot of the kids skateboarded, biked, mountain biked to different swimming holes up and down the mountain road. I was definitely, before I guess high school came around, you get, you start to have to work in the summer, but, yeah, oh, definitely a lot of good outdoor activities. Yeah, for sure. I had a summer experience, it's just riding the bike around. So many holes. Yeah, so many holes were definitely a highlight in the summer. Then at that time, there just wasn't quite as much development to be like, Oh, let's just go hang out in this random field. Yeah. Do our homework. Of course. Yeah, we're doing any, once high school came, I definitely It was nice being, small high school. I was friends with all sorts of different cliques, whether they were jocks or, more artsy type or, I loved Stowe high school. I wouldn't want to be any other place. the first, maybe in sixth grade, I was like, boy, we're moving. you're, We come from a similar, in the Berkshires, a very similar small town, obviously not nearly as good of mountains and, but small community living and that was tough, but boy, it only took a couple months just meeting kids in my grade and I was already, never turned back. That's awesome. Yeah. Felt like you fit right in. Yeah. Yeah, found your place. Yeah. Yeah, what about you Jed? what, you come to town, you're new to Stowe, you had known Stowe, come in here weekends. what was Stowe like for you back in those days? for much of my life I had friends in Stowe, old friends. I lived down in the, Duxburyshire, part of the Mad River Valley. I had a farm there, worked out of there. but one, I don't want to call it an ethic, and this wasn't a strategy, but I'd always serve, whether it was, I started out in Wynn Hall, Vermont, at 21. I served on the planning board as their chairman, their first zoning administrative officer. In, Monterey, I served as a select board for nine years, school board for four years, planning board for 12 years, conservation commission for 14 years. So when you have a solitary profession where you're not around people, my engagement really had to do with civic service. And I had a lot of knowledge about rural planning about, ecology, forest ecology. And I had leadership experience since I was a little kid. So that gave me an entree. Becky Graddock was stepping down from the school board. She said, Chad, we didn't want you to run. And I had known her and Omar before we actually moved here. So you get involved with the community, not because you think you're smarter than anyone else or more important, but you actually care. And in my case, I cared more about kids that were struggling than I was making sure you're fast tracked to some Ivy League experience, whatever. So I was very quickly I wasn't here two days. I joined the youth hockey board. Six months later, Posty, myself, Laney Nichols. We started the Friends of Jackson, this group, to try to improve the rink. I was recruited to be on the land trust board and things like that you get. and when you're engaged, raising kids in school, that's a whole community of families. And so it was very easy to adapt, myself here. And, I just want to give back about raising kids. Cause, most of us have a fair amount of inferiority, We're not as smart or as strong or as wise as other people. But, I was always attracted to humility and, maybe it's, I'll credit my parents for the values they taught me, but, all three of my sons, I think the only lesson around being hard, you gotta be the master. You gotta be first. You gotta do better. I said. You want to be my hero for life? Never be silent, a silent bystander when someone's being bullied or someone is being cut out of a group or ridiculed or picked on. You put a stop to that and protest that even if you're putting yourself at great physical risk or, teasing. There's nothing better than be courageous and stand up for people that are weaker, more vulnerable than you. That's a good lesson, yeah. does that tie into, you're the state representative now, is that some of the motivation behind that? You wanting to do that? I'll get to that Mike. But the one thing I learned, because I worked, there are people that, what a, you think you're a logger, you're a scrawny little fella, scrappy, but, I would always outwork anyone, one to learn, one to improve, continuous improvement, and knowledge mattered to me. But when Carl and I teamed up several years ago, I had been self employed most of my life. And he now was. And I said my biggest regret, as I look back over the last half century, is I probably wasn't generous enough in paying him. People that went to work, risked their life, worked with me, as I should have been. And I said, so if that's the second life lesson, I said, even though you're the one with the six figure debt and equipment and repair and responsibility, you can't do this work alone, and you need to. be more generous. The more generous you are, the more successful you'll be. And it takes time in life to realize that generosity gives you way more joy than, being selfish about. Yep. And it just, that's human nature, but maybe some people don't learn that, but I learned that. And I tried to pass that on. I'd say you did a good job. You did a very good job passing that down to your son. But yeah, Mike did just talk about, your work as a state rep. You obviously have, many years of service in different communities. How did that all come to be? Or are you enjoying that? Ted, it's one of the biggest honors of my life. You get to be my age. Like I say, I've always been all in on whatever I do. and let's say I have 60 man years in public office on a municipal or a regional planning type basis. I wasn't aspiring to do this, but as someone who has started At the bottom and work their way up in serving the community. I was offended when I read a profile of someone who had moved here from North Carolina with quite a satchel of California money to take a seat to represent Lamoille one district, just so having never Or any in the community. Yeah. And I just said, I'm all in this isn't right. And I approached some younger folks. I aren't any of you, representative Sherman, Heidi was not going to run again. Don't you feel like stepping up and serving your community? And it just. But it was in my DNA. Leadership and responsibility mattered. And I just said, you know what? I love this community. And I like, I'm not impressed with myself. as I always said, I, I was the poorest educated candidate in the race. but didn't mean I was not the most thoughtful. Or, you can make up with, for a lot if you actually understand people or care about people and care about your community, so Ran, it was a rather terrifying experience, but it worked out very well, and I have Despite the frustration and being a moderate. I'm one of three independents in the building It's challenging but liberating because I don't have party bosses to scold me or tell me how I should be voting. I vote for my conscience and my constituents. So it's been great. That's great. It's great. It's challenging down there, but I believe it. Yeah. Challenging nationally, challenging statewide, lots of challenges everywhere, especially this week. And globally. So on this podcast we don't touch on national political things, but what's, both of you, what's your hope for Stowe in the next 10, 20 years? You grew up here, you've been here, when you look at Stowe and it's changed, what's your, what do you hope to see in Stowe in the future? When we came here, we were a working class family who could find a piece of land, build a home, raise a family. It was affordable. You needed to work and you needed to take risk, but it was possible. Yep. Yeah. Today that's not possible. Most folks have moved to Stowe. Are here because it has become such a popular, leader in resort tourism. the wealth that has come in this community and it's always, there have been many affluent families, but, nothing is affordable for working class, entry level, young families. Thank you. like when your parents moved here, or even when I moved here. It's changed a lot. It's changed a lot. that's a challenge. Stowe is not a sustainable community without school teachers, bus drivers, people to serve on the police, the library, The highway staff, when you have to travel 50 miles one way to come for a job, that's not sustainable. But Stowe, like many of our surrounding towns, the values have doubled and tripled. Stowe obviously leading that, being the tip of the spear, has made it tougher. So we need to, figure out a way to make Stowe more sustainable. or housing more affordable, our school populations shrinking, our education costs are expanding despite the smaller population. We have a lot of unsustainable patterns going on that need to change. But without housing and without entry level for young families or workforce, we will lose our community. Yep. Yeah. No, I think that's the key is, trying to find a sustainable future, and keep that sense of community that makes Stowe so special that, we've been spending all episode talking about, we're just about wrapping up, but I have a question for each of you that we ask all of our guests. We'll start with Carl. If Stowe didn't exist, where would you live? Anywhere in the world. Somewhere with skiing, I'm guessing. Yeah, absolutely. But we'll let Carl answer that. Yeah, maybe, I'm half Swedish on my mother's side, so maybe up in Scandinavia somewhere. Good call. Yeah. His nickname is The Viking. In our, in our ski crew. We call him The Viking, just so listeners can be aware of that. If they see him ripping down the mountain. There you go. Alright, Jed, you're up. if I happen to love Vermont. I love Stowe, but if Stowe wasn't, where would you live? Probably Waitsfield. There you go. I like that. We, everybody we've talked to, it's somewhere out in Colorado or actually Neil Van Dyke. He said, yeah, Lake Placid. He said he's I'm a New England guy. So yeah. Yeah. unlike, I went to the University of Colorado, loved it. I like the seasonal change, the, character of the deciduous forests versus the more arid, monospecies, ecosystems like in the Rocky Mountains. Absolutely. I'll stick with Wadesfield. Awesome. That's a great spot. All right. Thank you, Jed and Karl Lipsky. Loved having you today. And, we'll see you next time. Thanks guys. Thank you. Thank you both.