#9: Mila Lonetto: Insights on Planning and Shaping Stowe's Future

In this episode, we sit down with Mila Lonetto, a dedicated member of Stowe’s Planning Commission, to uncover how town government operates and the key issues shaping our community’s future. From zoning changes to housing challenges, development pressures to preserving Stowe's unique character, Mila shares insights into the behind-the-scenes work of the Planning Commission. Join us for a thoughtful conversation about balancing growth, sustainability, and what makes Stowe a place we all love to call home.

Perfect for anyone passionate about the future of Stowe, community planning, or just curious about how things get done in our town!

Transcript

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Welcome listeners to the Octagon Podcast, episode number eight. My name is Ted Thorndike and I'm joined here by my co host, Mike Carey. And our guest today is Mila Linetto. Mila is a member of the Stowe Planning Commission, which has responsibility for both long range planning functions and short range development regulation. The planning functions include periodic updates of the Stowe Town plan, drafting development regulations to implement that plan, and offering policy recommendations on all matters related to Stowe's growth and development. Welcome Mila. Welcome. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Excited to talk to you guys. Most importantly, have you gone skiing yet? I have not. I'm still riding my bike. Yeah, I'm not ready to give it up It's been some nice weather for November for sure. But yeah, so we'll just jump right in Why did you get involved in Stowe town government? So I've been on the Planning Commission for almost 12 years And so that would have been 2012. And I think at the time, I had a two, two and a half year old, in a business in town at the time. And, I've been here for 24 years. So there's been a lot of change obviously in Stowe. And I think even then in 2012, I was starting to see and feel a lot of change. And. really care about this town a lot. And, I don't know how I knew that there was an opening or, that they needed someone in the planning commission. But when I found out about it, it sounded like the right match of thing for me to do. And it was it takes a while. I think it was probably, At least a year before I felt really comfortable participating in a lot of the conversations and to learn, enough about the issues to feel really comfortable participating and even longer to really feel confident. but yeah, it has been a good match for me. Nice. How many people were on the planning commission when you first joined? if we were full, we would have had seven. I think we were. I think we were full when I joined. There have been some periods of time when we were short someone. It's really hard to get people to volunteer there every, two Monday nights a month, to do the meetings. And in an effort to have qualified people lined up to move into seats if they are vacant. We now have two non voting positions on the planning commission so that people can get their feet under them, be a part of the meetings, and then if a seat opens up, there's someone who can move in with a little experience. so now we have eight people on the planning commission. One of those non voting seats is open right now. Got it. So so if either of you want to join the planning commission, there's a plug right there. There you go so You hear about the planning commission you hear about the development review board the select board honestly, help us understand how does it all work together and You know the specific role of planning commission and how you work with the other groups so We have our select board. Those are five elected positions. They are essentially responsible for making all the decisions. and they hire our town staff as well, or at least our town manager. I don't know if they hire every position, but, so everybody essentially works for this select board. then we have a number of town committees and commissions and groups, like the Planning Commission, the Development Review Board, Energy Commission, Conservation Commission, Recreation Commission, Cemetery, Arts and Culture. I know I'm forgetting some, sorry to whoever I'm forgetting, Stowe Vibrancy might be one of them also. Okay. And those are all volunteer, and focus on different aspects of town government. they all have once or twice a month meetings. They all have to be in public meeting all the time. and they all essentially act as, advisory boards to the select board. not the DRB. that's a little bit different, but, So like the planning commission, anything that we do is really then presented to the select board and the select board says yes to this or no to this. which is why it's really important that all of us are at these select board meetings because that's where it all goes down. And, if the select board doesn't think that the community is going to support something. Or there's just one person there to give an opinion about whatever the issue is, that's all the feedback they get. so that's really important. And then in terms of the relationship between, really, I think the thing that you're asking about is the Planning Commission, the Development and Review Board, and the Select Board. the Planning Commission is in charge of developing the zoning rules. That's a part of the charge of the Planning Commission. The DRB is in charge of enacting them. So they're a quasi judicial board. The projects that happen in town come before the DRB and they're in charge of applying this set of rules to the projects. The select board, and thereby essentially the community, is in charge of adopting the proposed rules. if the planning commission says we think we should do X, Y, Z and the select board says we don't think we should do X, Y, Z, the, without community input, it doesn't happen. and they have the final say and they have the final say. So that's how that works. And theoretically they're accountable to the voters. So they should be representing the community. So I just filled out my STO 2015. Oh, Me too. I did it too. That was great. I was glad to have the opportunity to provide my feedback. How do you incorporate that type of feedback into the town plan? the town plan has to get rewritten every eight years. I think it's eight now. It used to be five, but the cycle of getting input and through the community and through the select board takes so long that five years is, you're like just finishing and then you start again. So I think the state has stretched it to eight years now. So we're just starting again for 2026. The last plan was in 2018 and that wasn't much of an update. It was a facelift. And now it's feeling wow, things have really changed enough that we may want to take a much deeper look at where we're headed. and the town plan is, by the way, a document that has, history, data maps all about the town and then also goals, policies and tasks for the town to implement. And it's a municipal document, so it's. really the town, the municipality, and the staff. It's their directive, it's the select board's directive, and it's all the committee's directive. to answer your question, we are taking input from the community through the survey, through some public input sessions. I think there are gonna be a couple more public events, and we've hired a community engagement consultant who will help consolidate all of this information. I think there's going to be some theming sessions to talk about the big ideas and create what the overall vision is going to look like. this is something that I feel like we as volunteers, this is not my skill set how to do all of this, but we have some help from the community engagement consultant. and, then the planning commission will take those ideas and sort through what the tasks are that need to be done in order to. reach that those goals and somehow we'll put together a document, that hopefully the town will like and approve. and so in the town plan, it's things like traffic, roads, recreation, where should development be concentrated? those are the kinds of things that are in there, but is it, so you'll put that together That's not a law. Or is it? It is. It is. Okay. It is. So it actually. Vermont towns, need to have a town plan in order. I'm not going to know the exact, all the things, but you do need to have a town plan, in order to be considered for certain things. Okay. and, to be considered, I think in the public utility board decisions, you need to have town plan goals around, communications and you need to have an energy plan and you need to, so there are some required things and you, every town is supposed to have one. Got it. So in addition to the survey, how else do you get input into this? I don't know if you've seen their cards. I should have brought you some, their cards around town and a lot of places that have a space to answer a question, fill in a blank about your vision or, what do you see for stow in 2050 or. Your six word Stowe story or, I love Stowe because blank, just there's, and that's like big picture. I guess that would also seem the point you made earlier about going to select board meetings. I'm assuming if residents go and share some of their thoughts that those would be recorded or, at least, that it's out in the open air, at least that all members could hear. Yeah. I think, it is important for the select board and not just the planning commission to hear a lot of this because, it's I can go to them and say, this is what we've heard, but for them to hear it themselves, it just gives it a lot more. Yeah, I just clarity. I wonder if Stowe is a complicated place to do a town plan because you have the residents you have Visitors you have businesses that have their livelihood on people coming and tourism So I would think a town that just has residents mostly is pretty simple Town plan whereas our town plan probably has all these other aspects. I think you're right. I think it is pretty complicated and one of the things that is challenging about our town plan is That it has really many competing goals So we have a section on You The environment and we have a section on, conservation and we have a section on communications and we have a section on transportation, but nowhere does it prioritize, if you're faced with a question, do we do a radio tower or a teleprompter? or keep an ag property, how do you make that decision or, do we, how do we balance the growth of our commercial districts or how do you know, yes, a lot of competing ideas and goals. And at this point there's no, no one's stepping up and saying this is the order it's going to be done in. So it is very challenging. and I think, we see. The challenge of finding balance in this town every day, right? Yeah, and I'm sure there's no Crystal clear answer, there are so many competing priorities Yeah, I think One of the things that we're all gonna be facing is what Sorry, this feels like such a downer, but what things are we willing to give up to, to keep what we have? we're all going to have to be making compromises, in terms of, really in terms of making money here, what, how much tourism is too much tourism, how much traffic is too much traffic, how do we set boundaries? How do we create a sustainable tourism here? yeah, how do you balance grumpiness? you get grumpy, around Fall Foliage. Everyone gets grumpy in this town. Meanwhile, people are coming from all over the world to spend time here, And we want them here, It's we want people here. We want to share what we have here. and we need to figure out how to do it and maintain a quality of life. Yep. Yeah, no doubt about it. so the golf course development is a hot topic on, these days. How do projects like that get examined and vetted and, I would imagine it's pretty long, complex process, how does, how's that whole process work? Yeah. So that's really a development review board process. in the big picture, the rules. Are created by the planning commission, the rules that say here's where we want density. Here's where we want bigger buildings Here's where we want bigger lots. Here's where we want smaller lots Here's where we want sidewalks and walkable village, those rules Are really hard to write In a way that is fair because you can't say we don't want chains We don't want you can't choose what businesses can come in and come out you have to You make standards that get applied equally to whatever the structure is. and it's very hard to anticipate what someone might come up with. So anyway, so those rules exist as the zoning bylaws. And then, a project like the golf course development goes to the DRB. So you don't get involved. That's you're not, you don't even see that. Nope. Nope. It goes to the DRB. Initially, I guess you were because you've played a role in the zoning bylaws. Yeah. I wouldn't see the project before though. But the foundational things that are being reviewed are some things that you have played a role in. and often the DRB will say, this is a really murky area of the code. Can you guys work on clarifying this so that, we know whether we can say yes or no to something like this. That's also a trade off because as soon as you make something a yes or no, and then you get something that really doesn't work and you've said, yes, there's no room anymore for, and as we. are in a more litigious society, the murkier and the more up to discretion you leave things, the more you leave things open to lawsuit. So that's also a really hard balance. Yeah. Yeah. And the DRB does a really good job with a very difficult task, Very difficult. Yeah. They're trying to ensure compliance. It's really hard. But there's all these gray areas and this and that. Yeah. Yeah. So what's top of mind issues that you're thinking about on the board? Yeah. Absolutely. housing, transportation, sustainable tourism, infrastructure and our limited infrastructure and how we can address that. Traffic is a part of that. those are the big things that we're having the most conversations about. I think. Climate change is underlying everything and is to me, and I should say, actually, I'm only speaking for myself. I can't speak for the planning commission. but for me, we're not moving fast enough in this town on climate change. And, I think it needs to be more of a top priority, but everyday challenges like. Getting down the mountain road, seemed to pop up more in your face, Are there any areas that you feel like we've got that covered? So it was great. We don't need any big changes or anything. You think we're doing great. I think our economy is doing well. I think we're good on tourism right now. yeah, good. Yeah. before the episode, Mike, now we're talking about. path. just what a visionary project that is. I walk my dog on that five days a week. And I think the view gets better of Mansfield every time. is there ever discussions about, something larger scale like that? Whether it's, adding bike lanes and roads or, any, anything like that. Or, some type of project with e bikes and e bike share. to your point about global warming, just some of those, larger scale projects. And I just use the rec path as an example, but I was just curious. And definitely e bikes. This is like the fourth episode that we've talked about e bikes. Mike is an avid e bike, right? I'm not sure if he mountain bikes anymore. I think he does. I'm just joking. Everyone sees me. so yes, all of those things that you just brought up, I've heard in conversation. What I'm learning about the way things work is that we have a really small town government, not a lot of staff, and not a lot of funds because, we don't really raise our municipal taxes because of what's happening with our school taxes. and so there's really limited resources and capacity. and It really takes thinking about the rec path. That was private citizens who marshaled their forces and partnered with the town, but it really takes people who will drive projects from that outside and lost. I think it was. Yep. And that park is called Linalaq park. So it may have been, the Linalaq also, And I don't know who else was involved with that. But, certainly all of these ideas have come up and they're all great ideas. the question is, like, how do we really go about making these things happen? And a lot of it, I think, from where I sit, it's gonna take people saying, we're gonna do it. Here's how we're gonna do it. Let's get the town's help with this. And, we're going to drive it. Yeah. So getting the business people, the regular residents to also help and spearhead. I got to believe there's grant money, federal grant money available for these kinds of things. But again, just like you said, it takes people and resources to marshal it all together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I just piggybacking on that to me, like the right path, that's a big idea. That, That added so much to this town. so important in this town. what are some of the big ideas that people have brought to the Planning Commission? one thing that we've been talking about and that I really love is the idea of a transportation center with a town wide, year round bus service. Yeah. with parking terminals north and south of town. And, that would be phenomenal if we could make that happen. there was, before I was on the planning commission, so maybe 15 or 20 years ago, there was, a plan that's all engineered already, but didn't have all the property owners, acceptance yet to connect the, can basically connect town to the rail trail in Morrisville with a bike path. Yeah. So you could go, yeah, you could go bike path between, essentially you could get from the rec path to Morrisville on a bike trail, which would be incredible if we could do something like that. and, right now I feel like, there's the traffic solution of the gondola from town to the mountain. Heard that from Queenstown, New Zealand. I just saw it. It's a detachable gondola. Smart gondola. the tunnel underground from town to the mountain. That's, have the Swiss come build that? People are very creative and I think a lot of ideas make a lot of sense. Yeah. And the question is then, how do we do that? And we are such a small town, and we actually have city sized problems. we have traffic, we have housing shortages, we have, development questions. And those are, a lot of the towns and cities that we look at for models of how do people tackle these questions. Have so many more people working there. It's like it's a good point, right? It's a good point you bring up a lot of volunteers and You know a small staff. Yeah. Yeah, because we're what six thousand residents I think our population is more like 4500 a full time yeah, and then it can or maybe that's our registered voters. So that would be yeah And then I think we get 10 000 plus when we're Yeah So housing, let's just talk a second about housing. My favorite topic. I just, I think about housing in this town and everyone wants affordable housing. how does that even happen in Stowe? Cause you've got developers, you have lands expensive, you have choices probably for developers to sell a 3 million home or to try and sell an affordable house. So how does, how can we make that happen? Realistically? Is there a path to that? I don't have the answers. Yeah. and I don't want to get too deep into policy, but, I'll say a couple of things. one is that I think one, one thing we have to think about is, not just answering the question by building new housing, which, we certainly need some, but we also need to think about how do we balance, you existing housing stock, get it back in balance. as just looking at the homestead declaration numbers, we are now 27 percent homestead, versus full timers versus, that's people who live in their homes. So obviously some of the other properties could be rented to people who live here year round. But basically that's where we are and we've lost on average and it hasn't been consistent. Sometimes it goes up a little, sometimes it goes down. But on average, we've lost 10 homestead properties a year over the last 20 years. so 200, and we know there's been a lot more. there's a lot more, building happening, but the homestead numbers aren't going up. so thinking about policies that would rebalance that, and, I think it's doable. I think my model in thinking about this has always been, there are a lot of different levers that you can pull to, to change. The situation and we don't want to rely on one because they all have a backside. So if you say we're going to solve this by development, then you got traffic and lose our land. And, Stowe looks very different. And if you say, we're going to solve this all by having no short term rentals, then we don't have our tourist places. We don't have, that's not the answer either. I think we need to think about it in terms of pushing all the levers just a little, a little at a time and trying to make incremental change. Yeah on all the different fun on all the different fronts and I think with all these issues, I think All the sides wherever but anybody stands everybody's gonna have to give a little everybody's gonna have to give a little that's like my one Takeaway thus far like everybody nobody's gonna get exactly what they want In order for this to be sustainable and everybody To be happy and thrive. I think it's true. we're all going to have to compromise and we're all going to have to think about where we're willing to do that and hopefully come together as a community to be able to do that. Do you ever look at, this is a mountain town problem nationally. Do you ever look to other towns and what they're doing? Innovative wise, I know they all Breckenridge, Sun Valley. I got to believe they're all going through. Yeah. Yeah, we are not alone. we are not alone in, in these problems. And some other towns have come up with some really great creative ways to, to deal with the issues. we do have some unique challenges in Stowe. Vermont is a Dillon's rule state, which means. it's also called home rule, which means that the municipalities are not allowed to levy any taxes that aren't approved by the state. So we're hamstrung a little bit in our ability to raise funds for doing some of these more creative programs. I don't think it's crazy to think that we could do it privately, that we could create some sort of fund that would work and maybe the town would participate in it to do some of these cooler programs. there are places like. Big Sky had a program where they, had homeowners who had, big houses that they only used, a very short time of the year, like maybe a week or something. And they got, and then there were people who owned condos, let's say, that would be appropriate for year round housing. And they got the, Nicer homes to be rented by the people who actually owned the condos for the time that they would be on their vacation. And then those people who own the condos rented their places out year round, still got to come to big sky, stayed in a nicer place. and so they had incentive payments to do that. and there are a number of really creative programs like that, that I think are very doable. again, you need people to drive them and the money, yeah, I think I saw one, I forget it was Crested Butte or somewhere, if you rented out a room or an apartment in your house to a local, you got a discount on your taxes. Yeah, I And again, I don't know how that would work, but maybe a fund. I'm just, yeah, you're trying to think creatively about how to. We could have a fund that would, That would incentivize people to switch short term rentals to long term rentals. We could have a fund that would, make the down payments on first time home for host first time home buyers. We could have, there are deed restriction programs. I think that our, affordable housing provider, Lamoille housing partnership, which has now merged with downstreet, which is the Montpelier area provider. they have some really interesting things that we may be able to take care in terms of deed restriction programs, they keep the equity with the house so that could make houses more affordable. There's a lot of zoning changes we've been talking about, that could help. There's, there are a lot of, there are a lot of angles. the town has just created a housing task force. I don't know if you guys know. There is now a housing task force that is looking very specifically at each of these things and evaluating what makes sense for Stowe and what doesn't and, should have a report by July. We'll see where it goes from there, there's certainly some effort, in all directions on trying to make some headway on that. Yeah. So you touched on this at the start, but, why is it important for residents to get involved? I know you put a plug in for the planning commission, just a variety of other boards. why do you feel it's important and how do people go about getting on these boards? Yeah. The number one important reason I would say to just show up at meetings is to just have your voice heard and be part of the conversation because it's so easy to say, Oh, yeah, they've got this. They're taking care of this. And then nobody's there. And people think, Oh, I guess people don't care about this issue. Not that big a deal. It doesn't get fully discussed. and I think the more voices in any conversation, the better the outcome. So that would be my number one thing to say to people to go to these meetings. And you actually don't have to go there. The select board meetings, the planning commission meetings, the development review board meetings, and now the housing task force meetings are all zoom. And so you can just comfort of your own you can just cook dinner and put it on you can have your camera off You can mute and you can just listen and then if you have something you want to contribute you just raise your hand I'll send my zoom ai agent my little agent to go listen in and summarize it for me Yeah, and they're all taped and on the town website So if you want to watch three hours of really entertaining video, i'm sure you can do that as well So I just I think it's really important that people know You What issues are up for conversation and also what our select our elected select board members are doing and saying You know, that's really important to understand what decisions they're actually making So that's one and then I think being on the town boards and commissions We need all sorts of diversity on those boards And For things to happen in this town, we need volunteers. that's really important incredibly obvious to me now. so we need all the people we can get involved and doing things. it's tough. The timing can be tough evenings. It's hard like a night like this to head back out at 5 30 at dinnertime, especially when you have young kids. that's a challenge. but we do need as many people as possible to do that. And if people want to do that or interested, The process would be, for the planning commission, because we have an open seat right now, the process would be to, just send an email to the town office, to Will, in the office, and say, I'm interested in, applying for this and then the select board has you in for a quick interview and then they decide whether to appoint you or not. all those commissions are select board appointed. I don't think I said that before. and then you can watch the paper or front porch forum for openings on other boards and commissions. And if there's something that you're particularly interested in, I would say to just send an email and say, if a position opens up, please let me know on this Very cool. Thank you for sharing that. That's great. let's pivot to Stowe. What brought you to Stowe? I You're off the hot seat. Yeah, Now you can just talk about yourself. Now I can just talk about myself. I don't know which is more uncomfortable. I moved to Stowe in 2000. I was really just a kid. I just turned 26. Of course. I had been living in Park City after college, went for one year, stayed for five. And Ski bump? Yep. Yep. Yep. Just working at the mountain, waiting tables, and moved back here to be closer to family there in Massachusetts, and had been here once before to visit, friends who still live here now who we had met in Park City. And really love the town. I could really make this a long story, but basically we ended up being here. I, went up to the mountain almost immediately when I got here and, got a job as the first year round children's programs manager up there. And so I was overseeing ski school and daycare. And I started a summer camp up there. and. Just knew this was where I was gonna be forever, so that's how I got here. I was pulled in totally by the mountain and Did that for a while So you felt when right when you got this though, you were like, yep, this is where my people are gonna be Had you skied here or come here before that? I skied here one time before that on a Christmas vacation when it was negative 20 and the wind was blowing and everything was ice. I was probably 20 when I went, you know on a family vacation and we barely skied but yeah When we came back, it felt oh, this is where we need to be. Yeah. And, 2000, you said, when you got to Stowe. what was Stowe like? that's 24 years ago. Just what was the scene like? it was really different in a lot of ways. The mountain. where I worked at Spruce. There were three people who worked there year round. There was just the old base lodge and the adventure center. And a giant empty parking lot all the time. I basically felt like I owned it because there was no one else around ever. There were still buses driving around. Oh, to Spruce, back and forth. Yep, driving back and forth. School bus, before the over easy. Yep. They had some good music, I remember, as a kid. They'd usually be like blaring music. On the bus. Yeah. Yeah. there were a lot of young people. I had a lot of friends who worked at the mountain. I made really good friends. And a lot of them were able to stay and build lives here. Yeah. I don't see that a lot anymore. there was a lot of fun. And I also feel like, it didn't take very long to know everybody. I felt very connected very quickly. Yeah, and that's a good feeling. yeah, it really is. and, we were talking a little bit when I first got here, The people I skied with were from all walks of life, the people I worked with were from all walks of life. and everybody was just, happy to be in the mountains. Which I think everyone still is happy to be in the mountains. Of course, But. What are some of your faves? Were you in ski bum races? Are you a ski racer? Are you a free skier? I am not a racer. Okay. I did do ski bum races. With Ted's dad, I didn't know he did. I'm pretty sure he did for a little while. Everything. So it wouldn't surprise me, but I think he did. Yeah. or at least maybe he did the winter Meister. Definitely. That was, yeah, we used to do the winter Meister. That's another episode. I did that once. I did the winter Meister once. Yeah, that was fun. so yes, I did ski bum races, not with much success. That's my worst sport. I did ski run races for five years, and I just got worse. I got worse every year. I had a friend. He learned how to ski year one, and he was beating me. It's a different sport. It's its own thing. I can ski in the woods. I can ski anything. I just could not ski race. yeah, so I'm, I like, I don't know, I like just skiing on trails, woods, whatever. So I, I see out around town all the time. What are your favorite activities? Yeah. Is it mountain biking, skinning? I know you're super active. So what are your favorite things to do around town? Yeah. I'd say mountain biking and skiing. I don't, I can't even tell you which skiing. I pretty much do anything. I'd go on my, on any bike, any skis, cross country, back country, downhill. yeah, I just love to be outside. doing whatever in the woods. I think it's funny when people say ski, cause somebody laughs at me that I'm like, there's Nordic skiing, there's lift surf skiing, there's skinning. Then I have my three pin skis. Yeah, I know there's a whole garage full of stuff. It builds quick. It builds quick. I have been checking off sections of the Catamount trail the last couple of years. Last year I didn't do any cause it, Didn't really snow. but that's a fun adventure. I've been on. I like that backcountry cross country skiing. Yeah But I'm pretty much spend a lot of time in my garden Spend a lot of time with my dog Those are my favorite things. So as you go around town just Doing these things. And personally, do you have that planning commission hat on, or do you have just the Mila hat? I'm not going to see all these challenges in front of me. I think it's hard not to feel them. Yeah. especially, a lot of the trails have changed over time and houses appear suddenly where there used to be trail and, there used to be ways you could get from A to B in the woods that you can't anymore. so I think it's hard to totally. Not feel that, but I generally think my woods time is a turn it off time, get away from work, get away from my computer, get away from planning commission stuff. It's a good attitude to have. what do you feel makes Stowe unique? what keeps you here? I really think it's the access to the outdoor adventure that we have here. I am someone who really likes to pack a lot into one day. Yeah, same. Multisport day. Multisport, but also I have to work. I have to take care of the dog. I gotta, there's so much to do every day. And, I don't feel like I could do it the way I like to do it if I wasn't right here where I can go right out my door and everything's so close and I can run up to the mountain and take three runs and, pop up to traps and everything's very close and so beautiful. Unbelievable. every day I feel like I live here, and I think that's what, It keeps a lot of us here, even beneath the traffic and all the changes, Yeah. you can get away from it too. And you can't get away from it. When that exists, you can go five minutes and you don't see any of it. Yep. That's one of the beauties of it. That's right. That's right. We do ask all of our guests one question. If Stowe did not exist, that is not on the map, where do you think you'd be living? Oh, that is a good question. I think my easy answer is somewhere in the Northeast Kingdom because, I feel up there Oh, this is what Stowe used to be like in some of the places, like especially around Greensboro, Craftsbury. so I guess that'll be my easy answer. Great answer. I don't think we've heard N. E. K. yet, but that makes sense. I think that's where I'm going. And I think It's still a little colder there. Awesome. that'll do it for today. Thank you so much. That was really fun. Hope y'all enjoyed that episode of the Octagon Podcast. Remember to like us on Instagram at octagonpodcasto and subscribe on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We'll see you next time.