#15: Jeff Clarke: Seven Years of Edelweiss and Former US Cross Country Ski Team Director of Development

To ring in our 15th episode at The Octagon Podcast we sat down with Co-Owner of Edelweiss Mountain Deli Jeff Clarke. Jeff provides us with an in depth look at what it takes to run a small business in Stowe and the challenges and rewards that have accompanied this venture. We explore how he has revamped this iconic Stowe institution into a premiere provider of high quality scratch prepared farm to table dishes and co-host Mike Carey’s favorite Sweet Sensation Bar.

We also dive into Jeff’s career as the former Director of Development for the US Cross Country Ski Team. From building local club programs to coaching elite Olympic athletes he has been integral to the growth of cross country skiing in the United States. 

Whether you want to take your Nordic skills to the next level or hear tales of how a business can pump out 500 sandwiches in a day this episode has something for everyone!

Transcript

0:08

Welcome listeners to the Octagon podcast. My name is Ted Thorndyke. I'm joined by my cohost, Mike Carey. And tonight we have a very special guest, Jeff Clark. Jeff is the former director of development for the United States cross country ski team, and is currently the owner and operator of Edelweiss, which I'm sure many of our listeners have gone there to enjoy a delicious sandwich. Baked good and anything else like that. I highly recommend their chili Very good. and they're sweet. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What's your go to mic sweet sensation bar? Okay. Yeah, it's a popular one I think i've bought 150 of those over the last 10 years. Yeah The good old chocolate chip cookie. they just like stare at me at checkout. Even if I'm not planning on buying one, they just speak to me. Welcome Jeff. Thanks. Thank you. Welcome. Thanks Mike. Thanks Ted. It's great to be here tonight. and I would say that, I am the co owner of Edelweiss. my wife and partner, Chris. How do I say this? On a good day, it's mostly hers. On an average day, we share it. And on a bad day, it's mine. So that's how it rolls. But, absolutely would not be where we are today without her leadership. Thanks for that. Shout out. I'll just jump right in. When did you decide to buy Edelweiss? How did that all come to be? it's an interesting story. we have been, living in the Pacific Northwest for a very long time and had been hatching a plan, scheming to come back to Vermont. And, we started with conversations with friends and family about, if we come back to Vermont, where do we go? Do we go to my hometown? A Brattleboro, or do we go to where I went to school at Middlebury, or we have friends in Rutland, and Vergennes, and Bristol, and all sorts of places. So we started having those conversations. We went through probably half a dozen deals in various places, and none of them were working out. And so in, the eleventh hour, the Edelweiss opportunity popped up on the radar and I was like, we were just there. we had through hiked the long trail, and we stopped at Edelweiss, and of course have been going to Edelweiss for decades. And I was like, let's go check this out. Stowe hadn't really been on our radar and we came over and we're like. It should be on our radar. So after quite a long conversation, we were able to cobble something together. And so that would be 2018. Actually, we're about, 45 days away from our seven year anniversary. Oh, wow. Yeah, congrats. Yeah, thanks. So you had never been in the deli market business whatsoever. You were looking at all different kinds of business opportunities. yeah, our only expertise really was we're great consumers. so we thought, if we can figure this out, we have certain things that we think are, Cool. And let's see if we can build a business around that. So no, neither of us have any background aside from early life experiences as servers and, restaurant, scenarios, but we did come back with the. business plan and all the other deals that we were working on in other places around Vermont were centered around the same concept as Edelweiss. Because we think that community is built around food and beverage. And we had traveled all over the country looking at local food scenes. from farm to table. And our conclusion, was that Vermont has the best, scene in the United States by far. So, when we came back we were pretty resolve that we would build. There are so many great, small scale craft producers. You name the product it's happening here in Vermont and it's virtually every product category is world class. So if Vermont is doing these kinds of things, and if you go back through Vermont's history. Small, craft, world class is the characteristic, set of characteristics that have defined what Vermont has always done, just take it into the 21st century, and we are cheese makers. World class. We're distillers. World class. Obviously, brewers. World class. Always been maple syrup. World class. Always been apple. production. Those things. But now, whether it's bread, or, you name the product, ice cream. Vermont's doing it, and doing it very well. Yeah, it's true. you touched on it, but, when You think of running a deli, a market, from your standpoint, how are you part of the community, in your day to day and in your seven years, what is it like to, have that market, right on the mountain road. Yeah, it's been a very interesting journey, We bought a business that, of course, is iconic in Stowe. this is the 57th anniversary of Edelweiss and, the story of the family owners that preceded us is really the history of Stowe over the last 57 years. And so we felt a really deep responsibility to try to. bring Edelweiss back to being an important place within the community. we have a very simple, approach to what we do, which is if you walk out our door feeling a little bit better than when you came in. We've done our job, regardless of what happened in between entering and exiting, we've done our job. And so I can attest to that. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I leave, I always feel better. Yeah. we try to, create a holistic experience that, if there's something going on in your world that you don't really want to think about your 10 or 15 minutes of Edelweiss should be a completely different experience for your day. I love it. and so the first thing we had to do was rethink who are we and what are we doing within the community from a business perspective. And, it's tough when you take over something that the community cares about because. as you'd expect, you get a lot of feedback, right? Don't do this. Don't do that. Please do this. Don't. So you're sifting through all of that. And, we were a little bit cautious when we started, but then COVID happened. COVID really as terrible as it was for. everybody, Stowe, Vermont, the United States, the globe. it gave us the opportunity, to rethink and accelerate what we wanted to do because there was nobody around. we just ripped up the business plan that you would say was associated with what we bought. And we put our business plan into action, which was really, the transformation of Edelweiss from more of a convenience store that had some baked goods and a few sandwiches to, we're really a farm to table restaurant to go with wraparound, especially food and beverage. Yeah. Yeah. So we flipped the model. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's been great. You've kept what people love about it, but improved. What you can get there. there's so many options, right? we kind of put the building on a slow boil because we've had a lot of work to do there. So it doesn't look like we've. I don't know if we've done anything dramatic, but if you saw pictures from seven years ago versus today, it's pretty substantial. And one of the things that we're most, proud of is our ability to connect with local artists and integrate their work, both internally and externally on the building we've met a lot of amazing people and just said, If this were your place, what would you do? And they've all come back with just amazing ideas. And we've said, let's do that. So it has been a great transformation and a real asset to our community. And then I suppose the last thing of course, is, we're only here because the community supports us. So it's really important for us, on a regular basis to support. All of the things, that make Stowe a great community to live in. So we're very, happy and fortunate to be able to support pretty much any activity that's going on in Stowe where the kinds of things that we do, can be helpful. Very cool. It's been great. Yeah. Awesome. What's been the biggest challenge? you've walked into this, you've never really done. This type of business, when you look back to certain challenges, you're like, oh boy, I was not expecting that. Yeah, I didn't know that I was gonna have, the degree, of knowledge that I have about things like refrigeration. we have the culinary team, and we have the, kind of the retail team, and then we've got, under the waterline, the business operation. There's this whole other piece, which is the project management role, which has been seven years of scheduling projects because the building, needed to be brought up to code. Virtually a hundred percent of the equipment that came with the building was, far beyond useful life. And so it was at a state of failure. So we've replaced a hundred percent of that. There's some regulation and you got to figure that out. and, you've got to make those investments. We're always happy to make the investments because again, it's important that our guests who have supported us, over these seven years, see us reinvesting in the business. So there's a better experience. yeah. on that note of just. Challenges and successes of running a small business. What has it been like over those seven years recruiting employees? it's well known that there's, a housing issue in Stowe of affordable housing. What's that been like just recruiting and maintaining your employees? I don't think it really matters what size business you are, or where you're located. I do know, it's very interesting. just as an aside, a friend of ours is a senior executive with a large, company headquartered in Vermont that you would know. And, they have been trying to significantly expand their team, but they can't get anybody to move to Vermont. their headquarters is a nice part of Vermont. not that there's any part of Vermont that's not nice. It's just a very attractive community. So he's had to pivot the corporate strategy to opening offices in cities where they can attract talent, which is a complete 180 for their corporate strategy. So you are right. I think it was potentially a little easier pre COVID. we had a little bit of a challenge. I don't think that, as I said, we pivoted to a, a farm to table, scratch prepared, restaurant to go. we did not have the reputation here in Stowe or within Lamoille County more broadly. As the kind of place that talented, employees would seek to come work. So we had to change that perception. And, that's been a very interesting journey. I think we've turned the corner, but, I think if we're batting 500, we're doing pretty well over seven years. Yeah. I would like it to be higher, but it has been, a bit of a challenge. housing's a real, issue. We're fortunate, half of our team, lives in Stowe. and then the other half is, Morrisville and Walcott. So we're very fortunate. But there are some skill sets that are not really readily available here. and, so the question is, where can we find that talent and if, and when we find them, if they're not, within driving distance, where do they live? What are we going to do? Yeah. And so I, I really admire some of our colleagues in town who have vertically integrated And lock down some employee housing that they provide, because I think that's a huge, benefit. and so the folks who've done that, I think we're way ahead of the curve. I don't really have the answer. Yeah, right now on what we're going to do. Totally. just nice to get, that, explanation and just your experience of, you have some that live in Stowe, some that live in Worcester, some that live in Wolcott. Yeah. Just the reality of what it's like with an employee workforce in Stowe. Yeah. And the good news is that we've figured out a way Between the work experience, compensation benefits that we can make it work for them here in Lamoille County. I do know that if they have to look for another place, that's a very stressful, time for them. And fortunately everybody's in a stable situation, but. I don't think that's true for everybody. Yeah, no doubt about it. Take us through a day in the life at Edelweiss. I'm always amazed when I go in there. You have so many products, baked goods, and soups. I'm like, how do they do all of this? So take us through a day in the life at Edelweiss. Are you there at three in the morning? Yeah, it's the typical day where, we, again, we use COVID. the Edelweiss that we bought. Was open 6 30 in the morning till six at night, seven days a week. we were able to maintain that schedule until Covid hit. we had enough time to think. And we said, why were we doing that? That doesn't make any sense, really. So we use Covid as the opportunity to, dramatically reduce our, operating hours. So weekdays, 1030 to six, and then weekends nine to six. So there are no, for three or four a. m. Mornings. That's good. Everybody has a reasonable workday. Basically. Yeah, it's a professional workday schedule you know our team with children and families the earliest that they would be at work would be a weekend 8 a. m And they're home by 6 15 or 6 30 every day At the latest. so we bring the team in, either eight on weekends or 9 30 during weekdays. And if there are five or six of us there, that's six hours of prep time to get the place ready for either a nine or a 10 30 opener. and I think what most people probably. don't see is that if there are three or four of us on the floor, there are another four in the kitchen and the bakery, just in full production mode. we're very fortunate to have an amazing, sous chef who specializes in scratch prepared salads and soups and quiches and things like that. she's comes in and knocks everything out. And we try to produce everything in the smallest batch possible so that we have to turn it more. It's just a better product. Yeah. so we're really focused small batches, high turnover, which means that we're always producing. Yeah. So that's what's happening all day. And then we've got a couple of us who switch roles out on the front of the floor. And oftentimes you won't see me because I'm in the back, restocking. Yeah. that was where I found you to ask you to be on the podcast. Exactly. Buried back there in the stash. He was like, is this important? I'm like, this is very important. Yeah. that's a rinse and repeat seven days a week. And the baking is happening during the day and yeah. So magical. As you saw the cupcakes, those were completed at. Yeah. Five o'clock today. yeah. Yeah. we have a couple of cupcakes waiting for us. I know. After the interview. I can't wait for that. Yeah. That could be my dinner. Jeff, what would you say is the busiest Edelweiss has ever been? Is it, Martin Luther King weekend and any crazy stats of like record number of sandwiches that were produced in one day? we just had Superbowl Sunday, which was basically. A rogue wave. we were not prepared for what we saw in Super Bowls. we've, that's our seventh or eighth Super Bowl. This one was far different than some of the other days. that was a 450 sandwich day. But we've had, 500. Plus sandwich days, which you had enough supplies we've got someone slicing someone Making salads and it's just this well oiled machine that just keeps going and awesome. It rests on you know Really good communication. Yeah, people have to say hey, we're getting low on X. We're getting low on why do we have backups? Are there no backups go make it? so there's got to be good communication, but I would say, what has become the busiest weekend of our year is, Columbus, indigenous people, Canadian Thanksgiving, that weekend because the last three years has been spectacular weather. And then. There's also the art, festival, which got blown out this year, unfortunately. But there's a lot going on in Stowe on that weekend. And, you've driven up the mountain road. Yes. Cars parked in the middle of the road, people running all over, That's representative of what it's like. Yeah. Yeah. It's very busy. Do you look forward to that? Or do you dread that? I'm sure as a business owner, you're like, oh, this is going to be awesome. We look forward to it, actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the, it's like your Super Bowl, right? Yeah. you guys are competitors. You know what that's like. That's game day. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. the whole parking in the middle of the road still happens. I was driving by Emily's Bridge this morning and somebody was in the middle of the road. Taking a picture. So that's even in the winter. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's, I won't say the state plate that was on the truck, but I was, I waited patiently. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. it's a powder day today. Exactly. Yeah. What, what are the top sellers? Top sellers at Edelweiss? on the bakery side. Sweet sensation bar. Come on. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. lately we've been on a rice crispy tear. Okay. we've been surprised by that. trending and then old school. Then yesterday there's a three day fist series going on at the mountain right now for women. And, blondie brownies were cleaned out the last few days. But overall I think the top three are, the peanut butter cup. Sweet Sensation and the Nosedive. Okay. I go with just good old fashioned pumpkin bread. Boring. Could always spice it up with a Sweet Sensation bar is good for five meals. That thing is so rich and dense. now it's just in my head. I will be And then sandwiches, I don't There are many very popular, I suppose the Waits Field is my classic. Do you even know what that one is, Mike? The Waits Field? That's our Thanksgiving sandwich. Oh, okay. Got it. He's too busy with the sweet sensation. and the Hot Philly, on the other end, you got a kind of a cold and a hot. But yeah, a lot in between, I was going to say when we do 500 plus sandwiches, unbelievable stat. If you do the math, we're open. Let's say that's a Saturday. That's 540 minutes that we're open. We're doing 500 plus sandwiches. So it's one sandwich a minute for nine hours. Wow. That's incredible. No, you have a great staff. Yeah, I know. I know a few of them. I will shout out to the team right now. we have a, Absolutely amazing team. And, we would not be, successful. Without their, experience, a lot of great thinking and they know how to dial it up when necessary. How to make a sandwich a minute. Yeah. and High quality. Without any meltdowns typically. No, everyone's usually friendly. Yeah, totally. Efficient. What about famous people? Any famous people coming to Edelweiss? Yes, we have a few, they're pretty low key, there's a gentleman, he and his family live, I think, over on Weeksville. he was a student of mine in the early 80s, and we both ended up in Stowe, and I was at a still land trust, fundraising mixer at the alchemists, like the year that we got here, I'm looking across the room. I like, I haven't seen this. He was an eighth grader. I haven't seen him in 35 or 40. I'm like, that looks And I walk over and I say, Hey, are you? And he's yes. And I'm like, Oh my God. So we've reconnected. But he, he and his brother are screenwriters and, musical composers for Hollywood and he does it from here. Wow. Cool. Great guy. Anyway, he and his brother, we're working on this. Film, they were really pretty locked in for the entire summer. And then one day he said, Oh, I got, our principal partner with us is coming to town over the weekend and I'm going to bring him in. I want you to meet him. But this is a big film and. Okay, so I get a tap on my shoulder, I'm stalking in the middle of a, all hands on deck, all hands. And I get a tap on the shoulder. He's Hey, I want you to come meet a partner. Come around the corner. It's Ethan Hawk. Oh, cool. And, that's awesome. Oh, Hey, Ethan, how you doing? they were actually preparing the film for the, I believe the cons film festival. Wow. Which a couple, three weeks later it was premiered. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. we on occasion have, those kinds of folks, obviously we have all from the ski world. All the celebrities are in at one point or the other. and I have to remember LaRose St. Germain Defending world champion in the women's slalom. Yeah, five days a week for a couple years. Oh, wow, Paula Moulson Who today was fourth in the women's combined? And that's been on the podium five days a week for several years Ben Ogden UVM cross country top you 23 in the world cup last year and in the top 10 overall in the world cup this year. And yeah, you see those folks and you realize, Oh yeah, there's some serious skiing going on in Vermont, especially this winter. Yeah, great winter. that's actually a good pivot point. the skiing theme, as I mentioned at the start, you had a career working as the director of development for the U S Nordic team. Maybe just tell us how did you get into to Nordic skiing? I also understand you were a college racer as well. growing up in Brattleboro at the time You know dozens of world class athletes down there from all different sports just happened that the entire men's National team in the late 70s, early 80s was from Guilford. Wow. And these guys were all four to five years older than I was, There was a lot of kind of role modeling going on down there then some absolutely phenomenal skiers coming out of southern, Wyndham County. I wasn't one of them, by any means. those guys are still, 40 or 50 years later amongst the very best to ever come out of the U. S. system. but I, I did love skiing. So I, Skied in high school, skied at college, Middlebury College, yeah, but I knew that I wasn't that level, and, so I, but I wanted to stay in the sport, so I coached, I transitioned when I graduated and ended up, at Stratton Mountain School. And then worked my way through the ranks and ultimately ended up with the U. S. Ski Team for a while. And that was an interesting experience. I was in Park City for a few years and, working with, the junior programs, the collegiate programs, some of the club programs that were just starting to come onto the scene and, I worked with the domestic groups and, our goal was to help the folks who were just below the national team make that jump to the national team. Wow. Yeah. Impressive. in that development, is it physical, mental, technique, all of it? what sort of makes people get to that jump? there's a combination of factors. there's a coach, who is phenomenal athlete, also fellow Middlebury grad. He lives down in Thetford. he's regarded as one of the best ever in the sport. His name's John Morton, and he's, he's done everything that you can do in the sport, but he has, He has written extensively on the sport, but he, it's a very interesting way of talking about all the elements that are necessary, for success. And it's everything from, obviously you've got the physical attributes which are just, they're obscene for, for people like the three of us, when we think about who these people are, they are very unique individuals physically, but that alone is not nearly enough to push you over the top. So you've got to have a pretty special, psychological or mental approach to who you are and what you're doing and how you're doing it. obviously you've got technique and technology, nutrition. It'd be a huge factor. No sweet sensation. Probably want to, in moderation, probably, yeah, moderation. I was going to say more than just a sweet sensation, but, and then, it does come down to your support system. And, when I was in the sport, the unfortunate reality was I was often the entire support system, which is impossible. Now, I'm pleased to see certainly the U. S. Ski Team and even a lot of the college programs have done some great things like, added physiotherapists and full time nutritionists and, they're sending culinary folks on the trips and things of those natures. the technical team, if you're at the world cup or, we're on the eve of the cross country world championships and the Alpine world championships are in progress right now. Shout out to, breezy Johnson and Michaela Schifrin who won gold and today's combined Paul Molson, as I said, was fourth, but, the U S cross country waxing team is I don't know, six or eight or more people fully dedicated. Wow. And they're very good. and during my time it was me. Yeah. And you were the waxing. That was it. And that the team psychologist. Everything and did none of them. of course, but now it's the specialization is it's appropriate and it's great to see that it's supported because it wasn't supported when I was there and I think you can see now the difference in the results, between, my era, and today's athletes, they are just performing, yeah. I think in a way that it reflects this greater investment and commitment to the, the holistic system needed to. Produce and support, elite athletes. very happy for what the U. S. has done over the last 20 years. Yeah, sounds like some good developments. I've always been intrigued by the, Nordic combined. My understanding is that's, cross country skiing and ski jumping. Yeah. Did you ever do that? The ski jumping looks terrifying to me, but To be good at both of those, that's what's incredible, right? Yeah. that, and that's exactly it, Mike. It's how are you pretty good at both of those things. because the best jumper doesn't win just on jumping and the best cross country skier can't ski his or her way out of a poor jump. So how do you get to be pretty good at both? I would say there's another part of the Nordic community that's similar, you've got to be good at both. And that's Jan. I'm trying to remember if you really explored this with Jan, but of course she was on the U. S. Yeah, biathlon. Biathlon team. Yeah, same concept. and Jan and I are contemporary. So I knew her when she was doing that and, but it's the same thing. you're a U. S. biathlete or a biathlete in general, you are skiing. like a cross country competitor and you're coming into the range and you're, you want your 180 to 190 to 200 beat per minute pulse to go down to whatever it needs to be so that you can actually, knock down five, five targets without skiing a penalty loop. I was not talented enough to do two things at the same time. I was barely talented enough to do one thing at the same time. So my hat's off to him. Everybody across all the disciplines who do what they do. Yeah. I know. I feel when I get to the top of the cabin, if I had to like crouch down and shoot a gun, I doubt it. Yeah. or ski jump. Yeah. It's impressive. Yeah. you mentioned the Stratton school. I even know Jesse Diggins, the Olympian. Yeah. That's where she trains out of. Is that the top place in Vermont that you would see? Vermont has, the honor and distinction of being the home of the country's first, specialized ski academies. And so I believe, if my history's right, our friends just to the north here at Berk Mountain Academy, launched in the early 70s. And, we have one of the original attendees. Two of them living right here in Stowe. Stratton Mountain School launched shortly after Burke, then GMVS down at Waitsfield. and so they, I think GMVS just celebrated its 40th. Anniversary, or maybe it's 45th or 50th this year. And they're the youngest of the three. Killington Mountain School, Okemo Mountain School. I think that's it for a while. Linden had this going with the Linden Institute. but I think that program has long since. closed down, but yeah, the ski academies are, vital to, U. S. skiing's development pipeline. And then in Jesse Diggins case, training out of Stratton Mountains. So SMS, the school, is the, the critical mass there, but, the founder Hall of Fame coach there, who's since stepped down from Stratton Mountain School's very Caldwell from Putney, Vermont. before he retired, he layered on, an elite program called the SMS T2 team. So you've got the Stratton Mountain School program, and then he layered on. So you have more of a community. Aspect like you can start skiing in that program in a local Bill Cook League program at three or four years old and you can receive the same coaching. Oh, all the way until you're Jesse Diggins age 35 or 30. Jesse's 32 actually. then if you're like us master blasters, you, there's a master blaster component program there. So we show up for a workout and there's Ben Ogden, right? Home for a few days, let's go for a ski or you're doing a summer hike and you're hiking with Jesse Diggins and Julia Kern or locally, Ava Thurston, who's from Harwood, at Dartmouth, national junior champion, And, she's part of the SMS T2 team as well. So you can see these people, you can train with them. You, as a young kid, you get over the kind of the, these are the rock stars. They just become normal people. And then you start figuring out, I can do what they're doing. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. So we were talking before the episode, we also talked about it at the end of your review about the UVM soccer team winning the championship. and I think in passing, we mentioned the UVM ski team winning the championship. how would you compare the two or, ultimately what it takes to be a national championship in Nordic skiing? in skiing in general, not just cross country, but UVM's UVM is one of the gold standard programs, and has been for 35 or 40 years. I'm not sure what their national title count is, but it's probably more than five. they've always been up against very tough competition with. The Western schools, and Chris, her alma mater is University of Utah. Okay. and the Utes have been tough to beat, generally, but, I think the difference is obviously soccer is a purely a team sport, and everybody has to be on the same page on the same day. to make that possible and not just, their whole journey was just absolutely remarkable. on skiing, it's a little different because it's an individual sport, but it's performed on a team basis. what you'll see in college alpine racing, that's different from, the junior circuit or the domestic fists or Vera here, and certainly the world cup is in college. If you miss a gate, you hike because you've got to score points. So you know, there's a lot of strategy as an Alpine coach and Alpine racer, you have X number of starters and you need X number of finishers to register a team score. And if two of your skiers ski out on the course, the third, the last person, it doesn't matter what happens, they are hiking, they're hiking. not this year, but the year before down at the Killington World Cup, Lauren St. Germain, she had a hike and she hiked and she just barely missed. The cutoff. In other words, the top 30 for the second run. That's with hiking. Wow. and nobody hikes, but Laurence did because she was here. This was her thing, she, I think felt like it wasn't a good race for her, obviously. but a month later, she was the world champion in slalom. so I think there's some of that stick to it of this that you get from college racing. that, you might not otherwise. Yeah. So I would just say they're both from a UVM perspective, incredibly proud of both the soccer and the ski teams who have, Reigned atop their respective sports nationally. Amazing. are you still cross country skiing? Are you still out there pretty active? Are you classic or skate or both? we try to alternate. Alternate. if the conditions aren't, as long as the classic conditions are pretty easy waxing. You take the waxing seriously? Yeah, Ted doesn't wax. I need to up my game. Do you even wax? Do you? Yeah, I wax. My skate skis. I'll do my skate skis. yeah. Skate skis. Alright. the technology for classic skis is such that you really don't have to wax anymore. but we do. And if it's complicated waxing, which For the last seven winters, it's been complicated waxing because we don't really get any consistent cold weather. So you're always around that 32, which is just the most infuriating, the task of waxing at 32 degrees just as terrible. It always has been, but this winter has been completely different, right? Like you literally could have waxed your classic skis. A month ago with a super blue hard wax and you'd still be skiing on it right now. It's been perfect. Yeah, it's been good. What's your go to trails? we're up at Craftsbury on occasion, go down to Bread Loaf on occasion, but mostly here at Traps. And, just depends how motivated we are. low motivation, it's out the sugar road. That's right. A little more motivated. It's, it's the homologated 5k race loop. Okay. Yeah. And very motivated would be the cabin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. on that note, we have a few rapid fire questions. Okay. Shoot. Skate or classic? I'll say classic. Okay. Wax or waxless? Wax. Yeah, definitely. perizo to the cabin at traps or bears at the touring center? I would do bears and a fall run. Okay. Nose pre snow. All right. And I would do Get his own twist on it. Yeah. I'd do perizo on snow. All right, I gotta ask you. Sweet sensation bar or nosedive bar? I always say people are always like, what would you get? I'm like, it's not about me. How are the people voting? And I think it's a dead tie. All right. There you go. That's politically, that's the Switzerland answer. summer or winter. You had to pick a season. That's a tough one. I think I'd go summer. Okay. Just because it's shorter, but it's very sweet. Yeah. Nice. Cool. Yeah. Let's move into, Stowe life. I know we were chatting earlier, you're pretty passionate about the town of Stowe. Obviously, Edelweiss is the meeting place for, a lot of the Stowe community. you've been in Stowe seven years and you were mentioned before, you've seen it change quite a bit. So maybe just talk about, How you've seen a change and what you want to see for the next 10 years. I don't think that I have a 10 year vision because it's such a dynamic place, I think in real time, we're going to have challenges and opportunities that we need to navigate as a community. I don't think your community works unless it's economically vibrant. you both travel around the state. not every. community in the state, is having, a positive economic experience. Burlington and the greater Burlington area, of course, there's so much critical mass there and have some friends who've done a good job, helping build a venture capital, industry in Vermont, I think has been very helpful for the state. but you get outside of the greater Chittenden County area and things can look pretty different. And Stowe has been economically vibrant in a way that other communities have not, now granted. There are challenges associated with that, and I would say if we were investment professionals, we'd be saying, Stowe is a highly concentrated portfolio, meaning, largely dependent on a single industry, which is the hospitality, tourism, and that, that has its challenges because, of course, in the age of social media, places can become too popular for their own good. on the other hand, that's the kind of challenge that most communities would love to have to navigate. So I look at that as a good outlook as a glass, the glass is more than half full on that one, because I have been in communities and I had a whole another career in philanthropy. where I invested hundreds of millions of dollars in communities that did not have economies. I don't want to have to navigate that other scenario. Yeah, that is not fun. And that, usually means that, a community has lost what I would call its civic capacity to actually bring the community together. to work through and navigate challenges, but also identify and seize opportunities to write its ticket for its future. Very clear when you see a successful community versus an unsuccessful community. In fact, there are all sorts of methodologies on how you reconstitute civic capacity in those communities that have lost that. Because you think about what's happened in, we always talk about the Midwest as the Rust Belt. the amount of wealth and the capacity that a lot of the Midwest had in the 18, into the early 19, mid 1900s, absolutely astounding, but they lost it. and you could say the same for lots of different parts of the country. but. I think it all starts with the economy. So if we don't want a super concentrated economy, then what's the plan for diversification? Because diversification opens up all sorts of other challenges, leads to other challenges that maybe, we haven't yet considered. are we talking about? how will we diversify our economy? and have Morrisville and Waterbury Center and Waterbury taken on the role of the diversification and some of the more affordable housing. and maybe Stowe isn't going to tackle that, tackle economic diversification successfully, but If the answer is shut the economy down, then we got a whole different set of challenges ahead. We won't have to talk about development if we're going to shut the economy down because investors won't actually bring their capital here. you asked me what's the big change that I've seen. I feel like Chris and I were We're on this early seven years ago, we were early on this wave of recapitalizing community assets that had great histories. The original owners on our families had timed out and moved on to other things and they exited by selling their business. That's what happened with us. we, we invest in the community. That's what we did. but what I've noticed is there haven't been a lot of what we'll call us a family investor, a lot of the money that's come into town and, based on what I know from talking with people and what I can see, there's a lot of institutional money, particularly in the, hospitality lodging. Yeah. Yeah. And, but think about it. when you're renovating at 500 a square foot, that's a expensive proposition, right? So if you're buying, one of the old lodges, it needs a lot of work that needs, that level of care and attention. The capital's got to come from somewhere. So I generally think that the people who have come in with institutional money have done a nice job of bringing things up to a certain, modern standard. And that of course means that people want to be here. and, they have a lot more analysts than I do at Edelweiss, but somebody crunched some numbers somewhere, like lots of people crunched numbers and they figured, we can invest this on a purchase and this on a renovation and we'll still get a return. And I know that, based on what I am reading and some of the community conversations talking about it this way is. It's going to be an anathema to some people, but the bottom line is your community is either moving forward or it's not. it's easy to take for granted success, but it takes a, it's just like an athlete, right? we got some amazing physical attributes here called the mountain and the notch and Sterling Valley and Nebraska Valley and. And this amazing working landscape that we live in that's like having a high VO two max, but that's not enough to guarantee that is going to keep you where you want to be. You've got all these other aspects of your performance that you have to dial in and really get an out. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, that's how do you keep it authentic too, right? You know, you can't have it be all shine, without some authenticity, some soul, some soul. Exactly. That's the hard, that's a, that's what I feel like the hard part, right? You guys were talking about that in your 2024 review, how Stowe is, you felt was a little funkier, when you were growing up and how maybe it's becoming more homogenized and less funky and. One of the things I appreciate about you guys doing the show is, you have the ability to shine the spotlight on, on the uniqueness, the funkiness, the personalities, because every community could be the. the inspiration for, I don't know if you remember Northern Exposure or Seinfeld, right? Both great shows. Both classic shows about community and, both zeroing in on the truly unique funkiness that made, how's that all hang together? Yeah. and, to your point too, what tweaks or changes could be made to this great kind of base that we have? It could maximize a broader sector of people to enjoy and potentially live here too. it's a challenge. I'm an optimist. And I think, as someone who looks at things from what's the potential, I think Stowe's potential is unlimited. The question is what does that make our future look like? I would say that the challenges and the angst that some people in the community are feeling, that didn't happen in the last five years. this has been happening for 50 plus years. 50 years ago, Stowe was affordable only to people who didn't live here. Stowe wasn't affordable if you lived here. It was a resort town 50 years ago. It's always been the case that Stowe is more affordable. your story, Mike, it's the classic and a great story, I was living somewhere else that wasn't as affordable as Stowe. So we made an investment in Stowe and now guess what? I live here. I think that's the American dream. That's the success story. how'd you pull that off? And, with no internet. With no internet. I had to drive to Edelweiss to get my messages. That's where the, that's where cell service ended. Full circle right there. I love it. I was just going to say, when we got there, it was a black hole at the store. And so the first project was getting, fiber, double fiber to the building so that we had a network so we could actually run a business and we could put a modern point of sale into service. Cause when we got there, there was, the old. Push button cash register. I was like, yeah, this is gonna work, but we couldn't support a modern POS when we got there. that's a project management thing, but I guess it comes down to, a lot of people think Stowe is a special place. and we all know second homeowning families who, if you're really, Talk to them. It would be hard to discern whether or not Stowe was really their primary home or not, even though they consider it a second. They're just as passionate about Stowe. But they're here that much. Yeah. Yeah. Stowe is predominantly a second home owned community, but it didn't happen in the last five years. It happened over 50 years. And the reason that there isn't affordable housing in Stowe isn't because. Corporations came in and bought up all the housing. It's because people thought this was a desirable place to be. They bought housing, but I don't think that Stowe as a community has ever been particularly, excited about expanding its residential housing stock. Yep. go back and look at the record. I think it's pretty clear. It's it means that somebody's viewscape is gonna look different. Nobody's excited about that. Yeah. the devil's in the details. why do we have a housing shortage period? we don't have a housing shortage in the luxury market because that's what builders are building, because that's where the demand is. We have a. Housing shortage in mid market and affordable, which would be low income and workplace because we just haven't built anything and that's a very complicated, situation. there are reasons that developers aren't building here, but also I don't think the town has ever been particularly Owner Normal Owner Microsoft Office Word Microsoft, Inc, Housing Marketplace Title Microsoft Office Word Document MSWordDoc Word. Document. 8 focused on expanding its housing stocks. So we have a housing shortage, right? That's easily explainable. The question is, do you want to politicize it or do you want to solve the problem? And I have funded, I put tens of millions of dollars philanthropically into housing. So I have a little bit of an idea of what it takes, but the first thing it takes is a committed community that is going to. Except the trade offs that come with that. Yeah. It's the trade offs, each side needs to give, Yeah. Yeah. And you make a change happen. Exactly. And so again, successful communities, focus more on the commonality on their commonalities and their differences. And that is, goes right to the heart of civic capacity. It means that people with different perspectives, different life experiences, different sets of expertise, it's the old, if I were to put it in Stowe terms, it's the old. tradition of barn raising. You may not like or have a great relationship with all your neighbors, but you have one because when you need a new barn, whatever that might be, you want everybody to show up and help you build the barn because 200 years ago it was a matter of life and death. that's community building right there. and I think We should, as a community, keep that in mind. We have more in common. than we do, differences. Yup. Yup. Awesome. Good stuff. we're just about getting ready to wrap up. And we ask all of our guests this one question. If Stowe did not exist, where would you live? I've listened to some of the answers. They're very interesting. So I had to talk this over with Chris, smart, yeah, didn't want to come in. Yeah, didn't want to surprise. so I'll give you two answers. there are so many incredibly beautiful places in this country to live. we spent a lot of time trying to determine whether or not we should do this in Santa Fe. It's just, New Mexico is truly the land of enchantment, right? The whole desert southwest is phenomenal. I always wanted to ski Taos. Yeah, I've never seen Taos. Yeah, it's unbelievable, to think that they get that kind of Snow down there is phenomenal. so we settled on this. if we stayed in Vermont, we would probably move, somewhere to the Champlain Valley, like Addison or Panton. So close to the lake. The Valley is amazing. Snake Mountain, arguably one of the best vistas in the state. and if we were to leave Vermont, we would probably go, to the Champlain Valley. You know down east to the coast of Maine up near Penobscot Bay or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, Maine's nice. Yeah great choices Awesome. All right. Thank you so much Jeff. thank you awesome Jeff Yeah, and I'll tell those centers definitely stop into Edelweiss grab yourself some good fresh farm to table food. You will not be disappointed Thanks guys. Really appreciate it.