#29: Bryan Huber: A Lifetime of Medical Care as a World Renowned Orthopedic Surgeon

This week we had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Bryan Huber. Bryan  is a world renowned orthopedic surgeon with a long career serving in the Navy, as Team Physician for the USSA and U.S. Snowboard Team, Burton Snowboards, Stowe Mountain Ski Patrol and has performed countless surgeries on local Stowe residents and athletes. An avid athlete himself, Bryan played soccer, rugby and water polo in college and has been an avid snowboarder for years. Bryan was diagnosed with Leukemia in 2018 and that journey brings a unique perspective on life as a father, husband, and community member.

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This episode of the Octagon is sponsored in part by archery close. Hey, this is Chris and Taste from Archery Clothes, your go-to boutique. For men's and women's fashion, we carry a curated selection of clothing, footwear, and gifts from unique and emerging brands. We're proud to sponsor the Octagon and even prouder to be local business owners here in Stowe. We love how the Octagon captures the history and characters of this incredible town. After coming off the slopes or the trails, stop by archery close. Located at 1650 Mountain Road in Stowe. Open seven days a week, or always open online@archeryclose.com. Welcome listeners to the Octagon Podcast where we explore the stories, people, and places that make stove Vermont so legendary. I'm your host, Ted Thorndyke, joined by my co-host Mike Carey. We are excited to introduce our guest today, Dr. Brian Huber. Brian is a world renowned orthopedic surgeon with a long career serving in the Navy as team physician for the USSA and US snowboard team. Burton snowboards snow mount ski patrol and has performed countless surgeries on local still residents and athletes, an avid athlete himself. Brian played soccer, rugby, and water polo in college and has been an avid snowboarder for years. Brian was diagnosed with leukemia in 2018 and that journey brings a unique perspective on life as a father, husband, and community member. Welcome Brian. Thanks Ted. Mike, it's great to be here. Yeah, welcome. Appreciate it. Good to have you on. When did you first discover you wanted to become an orthopedic surgeon? okay, I knew this question was coming and because also I've been asked this question many times and. I think back, a bit, and it wasn't clear to me exactly, but I knew it was young. I knew I was a kid and I grew up in Were you playing like that operation game? A hundred percent, yeah. Okay. Because I thought about that was Mike's theory, played operation. That's when I wanted to become a surgeon and playing the operation game. the really interesting side story is my really good buddy has a life-size one oh wow. Up on a wall and it's a male and female one, and they all have different, yeah, as you can imagine. But yeah, no, I grew up playing that for sure. I had a doctor kit, I had this, clear see-through anatomy mannequin or something. I'd take it apart, put all the organs together, the bones. I was just fascinated with it. And people asked me, gosh, you were really young. And I was like, yeah, I guess I was a kid. And then I went back for my 25th anniversary from high school and someone had our third grade. yearbook there, and I was leafing through it and it said, what do you like? What are you gonna be when you grow up? What do I like sports? What am I gonna be when I grow up, doctor? And I was like, damn, third grade. It really was Bernie Young. But I think, it, it really helped me, I carried that passion through it. Just really interested in it. It was a bit of my North Star when I was in high school, playing a lot of sports as well. but it was easy'cause I knew where I was going. Yeah. I had this in my core somehow. It wasn't later till I figured out it was ortho. But, once I, knew I was going into medicine, then I finished high school, I went to Bucknell. For undergrad. I was playing soccer, I was playing water polo in the spring and rugby, and just got really tight with these guys. And then we had a thing called Jam plan, and I would go do medical stuff in the month of January. And my rugby coach was an orthopedic resident. Oh, okay. And I had some medical, Bumps and bruises. Nothing too serious. But we used to go to this one doctor and we'd be all in a room. There'd be different athletes from around town. And, we'd be sitting there chatting and I was like, ah, that's really cool. This guy's helping, all of us, right? and I, that just resonated with me, my family, my grandfather, my dad, my uncle, all very mechanically inclined. So I was thinking ortho, it just, it, it both from a sports perspective, mechanical perspective, it's different than, primary care, right? It's not good or bad or, better or anything. It just different. And it's, we're worried about the modulus of elasticity and thread pitches and putting things together. It's just very, so that fit me. Personally. And, and so a couple of things happened. there in college that started to drive me, I was a chemistry major. And it was pretty esoteric. it was like, we were, it was out there, right? Like I was really struggling with how I was, what the relevance was in life. Like, where was, I knew I was going to medicine, but what was I doing in chemistry until I got to senior year and I was doing biochemistry. And we were purifying an enzyme for breast milk, jaundice, and it all had clinical relevance and it was just, boom, the everything went, in the right direction. And I said, I'm gonna take a year off and not go to med school right away. I'm going to do research.'cause I was really into research and and that's what you do. You do a lot of lab time, being a chemistry major. but now it was, I was doing biochem, it was relevant, it had clinical importance. So I applied to Spot Hopkins and one at HSS in New York. And, was there at the interview in New York. And this very famous, research professor, was asking me questions and they wanted me to run the mass spectrometer, and it's a geeky, chemistry thing of analyzing compounds. And I said, in the middle of the interview I said, honestly, I just want to go to medical school. Yeah. and I'm interested in orthopedics. And she said, oh, you gotta go over and talk to Joe Lane. And so I went over, hit it up with Joe. He said, I've got this grant. It's coming in. We're developing new bone graft materials. You're gonna be able to write. Studies, you're gonna be able to do the research. The bench top, it was all in orthopedics, and it happened and he called me back and he said, I want you to join our team. We had seasoned orthopedic surgeons, we had orthopedic residents, we had med stu, we had this whole spectrum. Great mentors, an incredible team. I had experiences that were beyond my years at the time. So that really just locked it in for ortho. And one of the guys, the docs I was working with, he had gone to UVM. That was the connection. That, and a fraternity brother was the first year of med school at UVM. so I took that year off and that, that locked in, from medicine to ortho. Yep. Yeah. and, then all through med school and then into residency and so forth. Wow. What a journey. Yeah. Yeah. it's good to reflect back. when Mike called me and asked me to come here, I hadn't really. Thought about some of these things, a long time and you open your eyes and you're like, wow, how did I get here? So did you then come to UVM for medical school? And I know you ended up in the Navy as well, so Yeah, so that's a really interesting story. So that year that I was in New York, I was, I finished my MCATs and I, was doing research and then I was applying to medical schools. And a lot of medical schools are in cities and I'm not really a city guy. but, that particular year, was my first introduction to, I had come up to Vermont, but I hadn't been to Stowe. But the season of 87, 88, I came up to sto with a friend and I was visiting my one buddy here who was already here. And, I came up and sto had two feet of snow. And I was still skiing at the time and I was like, wow, this is magical. Best place on earth. I remember coming down the hay shoot, right? And I'm standing at the top of lift line and I was like, pinching myself. this is incredible, right? And and so that year that I had doing research, I was also my introduction to Stowe and my, also my introduction to Vermont. Really? And the medical school. And so I came up another time and really soaked it all in. And here we are, Burlington, really cool town, vibrant, The lake was right there. the mountains were here. Just it had everything. and being in New York City. It was such a juxtaposition to where I was living on the Upper East side, right? Yeah. To, to being in Vermont. I was like, wow, this is where I want to be. So I applied to UVM, I got into UVM in a bunch of other schools in New York and Philly. but I wasn't a Vermont resident, and so in medical school was really expensive. And I said, I'm gonna apply for a Navy scholarship. And I chose the Navy. People asked me that too, like, why Navy? Like, why wouldn't go to the Army or something? I. There are a lot di of different billets, like they call billets, that's your duty stations. And the Navy really has some good ones. So I had gone out to San Diego right. And I did a rotation out there. And, anyway, long story short, it was, that the Navy would just fit me and Right. I was a swimmer too. That was like my main sport. And I coached swimming and just always had some connection with the Navy. And so I applied for scholarship. I didn't get it right away. They only give a hundred out a year in the whole country. It was harder to get that than it was to get into medical school. And then, I remember talking to my dad and I said, I can go to one of the Pennsylvania, New York school is a lot less expensive, but I really love Vermont. I just, I went up, I fell in love with it. it was for me, it was my place. And, he said, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out. And a couple weeks later. Boom. Got the notice, got the full scholarship. Oh wow. Full ride to the Navy and they paid for everything for medical school at UVM. Wow. So that's how it happened. So what did that require from you as far as, service for the Navy or any, all that stuff? Yeah, good question. my uncle was in Vietnam, so he was in the Army. And I had a little bit of, historical perspective on it. I wasn't a big military guy per se, but I feel a duty to the country and I feel like I had something to give back for, all of the gifts that our country has given us and all of us to be here and the freedoms. So I was interested in military as part of my career, but I also knew that I didn't want to do a rotc. For college because I wanted to do this. HPSP scholarship, it's a health profession scholarship program, and it's a year for a year. So if you, have a scholarship for four years, you can have three year two. But if you have a four year, you owe them four years. Okay. That's how that works. but it gets a little more complicated and I'll just jump into this side of it too. So you, if you get into medical school, first summer, you go down to Newport and it's like knife and fork school. You learn how to, eat properly and march around and, wear a uniform. And Sandy was living there. so I had met Sandy at Bucknell, but Sandy was. in Newport that summer with her sister. So we had the best time and, and it was great. So we learned the basics. And then after that, you're just busy with med school, so you're not really doing anything in the military, until the end. Okay. And then what often happens is you graduate, you're an md, but you're not really a practicing doctor. You have to do your internship and then you can go And so the military, you either do an internship with them or not, but you do an internship and then they pull you in to be a general medical officer. And that could be with. Anywhere anyhow, whatever the needs of the Navy are at that time. So you usually do two years as a general medical officer, then you come back and do your residency, then you come back and you add more time. So it's a very kind of back and forth. It's back and forth, but also integrated because you're learning. Yeah, that's right. That's cool. And you owe them time. Yeah. And so I had been working at HSS and then I had another colleague that I had done a rotation with, in medical school and he's a great guy. And we were talking a little bit about I wanted to stay in Vermont. I fell in love with it. I was in med school for four years. So anyway, I wanted to stay in Vermont for residency and they had a great program, a lot of focus on sports. some of the classic names and Bob Johnson, they had a lot of research going, and joint replacements and that. Those are the two things that I was really interested in. So I wanted to stay in Vermont and do a, what they call civilian residency. But you have to apply. To get a deferment to go that route. Yeah. So you, what happens? You go to med school, if you get the deferment, you do your full ortho residency, then you pay them back those four years as an orthopedic surgeon. Okay. Totally different ballgame than internship, general medical officer, back to residency, back to service. So it's the not the common way. And I get calls, for years after that. How did you do that? What did you do? I went down to the fes. I met with all these doctors and I just pitched my case for why I wanted to do civilian training, what I had to give back to the Navy. And ultimately, it really depends on the needs of the Navy. If they need you then there is no option, but, I was fortunate enough to, so that's the Navy, yeah. Yeah. Navy trajectory. Yeah. That ties in with medical school, importantly. yeah. so when you were doing the Navy piece, I thought, I. Saw somewhere that you were helping out with some of the athletes or seals, is that yeah. you're a good swimmer, so Yeah, It's go hold your breath for 30 minutes. Don't they train for that? We bought this guy, we had a SEAL team on base, and of course, there's a lot of, it's sports medicine basically, and trauma and, you get to know everybody pretty much. And, so I would see these guys swimming and we just got, and I, some of them were my patients and the SEAL team, six guys were there. And then, I was working out a lot. I was doing triathlons with a bunch of guys and a couple guys that I knew from the hospital were also swimmers and water polo players. And I had played sort of pickup. In high school. And then I played a little bit in spring at Bucknell. And so I said, let's put a team together. And then, knowing some of the Seal guys, I was like, let's challenge these guys. Let's put it, I put'em to the test. It was, they're trying to drown you under water. It was not legal rules or anything, but if you could withstand that. But we beat that. And, it was pretty, a big accomplishment. It was also a door opener too, because now they were inviting me over. I was taking care of them. They brought me out on little missions where they would drop these, frogs, with their hints, rifles everything out of a one 30 or something. They would come down, they'd drop these ribs in the water and I'd be on a small vessel making sure that no one got tangled up, and then they'd have to go underwater and set certain, it was really cool. Very cool. So I got invited on a bunch of these little. Practice missions and got to know the guys and worked out with'em. Played water polo in a summer league in Spain with them. So yeah, there was some cool, connections there that, you know, from my background and swimming to this and then being the Navy. But the Navy was, I think the big thing in the Navy was, there were, there was a time to just jump in. and you get there and I. Hadn't had much military experience. Yeah. And so I arrived, I had to get a new uniform and everything and I had to order it ahead of time, but I didn't, I forgot to order a belt. I didn't have the right socks. it was like a particular, because you what had the knife and fork training two weeks, knife and fork. Yeah. And then four years later, okay, it's nine years later, it's, oh wow. It's so four years of med school, five years of residency. So of course my uniform didn't fit. And hey, I'm just the medical guy. I'm a medical guy. Which is funny and sidelight that's cool. After that first little bit, I rarely wore my uniform. Okay. for formal occasions. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the Navy Seals never wore theirs. most of the military guys are pretty buttoned up and they, but there were some leniency to us, and people didn't. I mean they, if I had my uniform on, and they were a different rank, then there was a salute and I had to get used to that'cause I wasn't sure who was who. And so I arrive and I have this uniform and I'm, a pretty high ranking officer already'cause they bump you up quickly and, but I don't really know all the military etiquette. Yeah. And so I didn't have the right socks. I had argyle socks on. I don't, this is the only socks I had and I didn't have a belt on. And luckily I had the rest of it. Okay. And the guys they call, everything's an acronym, PSD, personal Support department. I go in there and my Sandy's with me and she's cracking up. These guys are cracking up. And and they're like, come on Doc. And then after that I rarely wore my uniform. And so we were just working out. I'd wear shorts and change into scrubs and, and everyone called you Doc, no one really we, so it was a great experience and to I talk a little bit about that'cause it was in Spain. I wanted to go to Spain, and it, and there's a lot of different places you can go, you go to, you work with your detailer. towards the end of residency I flew to Camp Lejeune and I flew to Naples and Bethesda. And Spain, and these are all naval bases. And I just fell in love with Spain. So I came back and I sent a note to the detailer and it said, Spain, top three. And so of course a couple months go by and I get the call from the detail and goes, all right, you're all set to go to Camp Lejeune. I was like, okay, cool. And camp Lejeune would've been great too. it's a big marine base, lot of injuries, patching guys up. And, and a really active population. So I was fine, but I, in the conversation I said, I'm sure things are gonna be great at Camp Lejeune, I had really wanted to go to Spain and I was really eager to go overseas, and we didn't have kids at the time. I. And so fast forward, he said, lemme call you back in a half hour. And so he calls me back in a half hour. He said, all right, you're all set to go to Spain. Oh, wow. and I thought that it was a two year billet.'cause most of the overseas billets at that time were two years. So I was prepared and I was busy finishing my boards that summer and packing up and getting ready to go to Spain. And we literally are on the plane and I'm flipping through these old notes and like my orders, they're, from the military and I said, Sandy, it says three years here. and she, yes. Three years. So we were like, oh my gosh, we had planned Spain for two, come back and go to Newport for two. That was the dream. That was the plan. And now we're there for three. But when we got to Spain. We weren't even there a month. And we said, how can I extend for my whole four years here? Oh, wow. And that's how that worked. And I just jumped right in. That's where, circled back to, my, two guys that were there. One was going, they were both going back to the states, but as soon as I got there, they were like, we're out. And so I had six weeks by myself on call every night. New hospital, new systems, you name it. it was, right out of the trial by fire. Yeah. Trial by fire. Yeah. But it was great'cause it really got me up to speed. And that's how you learn, right? That's how you learn. Yeah. and it also, people were so nice and engaging. And then my partner that I had for four years came six weeks later and he was a seasoned veteran. He had been through the military for a while. So it was great for me to really learn some of the. Etiquette in the background and what I needed to know from a military standpoint. But I got asked to be on the shuttle mission team. So if the, from Cape Canaveral, if the shuttle takes off and it has to abort in six or seven minutes, it lands in Spain. Okay. And so there's special protocols that we have to follow and we did training for that. And then I joined the surgical response team for Europe. And then, I got a call my first year there that said, you have a lot of sports medicine background. Would you be interested in being one of the doctors for Europe to travel around with the world class athlete program? And I was like, yeah, for sure. And so every year, couple weeks out of the year more actually, I would travel to different destinations with the world class athlete group. And they would be of the Navy. Of the Navy, and there were all the branches. So there's an Air Force version in the Army and there were a lot of Navy Seals in that group as well. And I would travel with them to triathlons the world games, different events in different locations, pentathlon, military pentathlon, that is, and just help, patch up the guys and help them get through events and, fix injuries. And it was a incredibly great experience. and everybody was chill, because they were all great athletes and, and so people would be switching uniforms and they'd be wanting to wear the doctor uniform and with all the doctor credentials on, I wanted to wear the seal uniform. And then at different countries I was switching uniforms with the Romanian general and I mean it just great stuff, really good people and got a great experience from that in the military. and it was a place where Sandy and I just had a chance to settle in, live in Europe. Different culture, I think. It was very important. We were on a bit of a hamster wheel, just grinding for so many years and here we were, what's the saying? work to live and not live to work. Yeah. And they really embraced that there. on the athlete topic, I know you've also served as team physician for USSA and the US snowboard team. Could you talk to us about that a little bit? How did that come to be? Yeah. I think part of it was my sports background. Yeah, for sure. and then this experience in the Navy, I think, really solidified that. So when I came to Stowe, I arrived here. we were chatting about this, meeting with your mom. Yeah. And, and starting the real estate hunt to, to find a place to live here. Sandy had come over a few weeks early and I arrived, on September 10th, 2001. Wow. And woke up. So duty is complete. No. that's an interesting, so I'm gonna get That's, I'm glad you brought that up.'cause there's a little twist here. Oh, nice. So I, I was on terminal leave. that means that your last, I didn't know how many days I had actually, but I was ready to come to the States. I didn't have any more act, active duty to, to go, but I was on terminal leave. So I arrived, woke up September 11th, 2001. horrible morning, tragic really. And, we were going around with your mom, looking for places and some of the families had relatives in New York and we had friends in New York. And it was, the day was really cut short and I called up a Newport and and I said, I'm here. I'm ready. Yeah. and and it was hard to get through and I didn't really know there was a lot of uncertainty. So I drove down and, went to the base and said. Whatever you need. I'm here. I'm still on active duty and, and so they didn't really have, everything was locked down. Yeah. Like I could only talk to people on the phone. But, so I came back and I waited and then there was an outprocessing, element that you have to go through. So I had to go back down and there weren't really, it wasn't an escalation here in the United States and there weren't, a mass casualties.'cause we used to train on a lot of mass casualty drills, in, in Europe, Lithuania, Estonia, and teaching different courses, that I did, over there. So we were ready and I was ready to help, but there just wasn't, yeah. it was sad situation. So I out processed and I wound up getting my. Final separation date was say October 9th. And, I came back and was getting prepared to start work here, at Mansfield. And I got a call from my partner and he said, what's your separation date? And, I said October 9th, and he said, oh my gosh. He said, they just put a stop loss, no one can get outta the military after September, October 14th. And I was like, days basically. And I would've been locked in. I was back over. Oh, So he went back over and there was a base in Stoll in Germany, and then there was R to Spain and we were the two hubs of injured, warriors who came to those hospitals. And so a matter of days I would've gladly gone over, without hesitation. Yeah. but, and I knew the area, knew the hospital was very familiar, had a lot of training. And but I didn't, and had that changed, it probably would've changed the trajectory of me being in Stowe. Yeah. And, I think back to Stowe, just to, touch on that little nugget is, I came up here that, that when I was in New York City for that Magic that just set the tone. Then in medical school, my my, one of my roommates there was doing a noles course and he was out living outside. He was really a great athlete and he had this thing called snowboard and I got started hearkening back to when I was a kid. And, we used to in the sixties and early seventies or like to ride the red flyer. he and anyone can lie down on it, but you can stand on it and hold that rope, That was magic. And then one of my buddies, he got a s surfer at the time. Yeah, so great. So now all of a sudden, fast forward all the way from kid to. Now I'm in medical school, I'm seeing this thing I just have to get on. And so went up to the mountain, took a lesson, and that was the season of 89 90 and that was it. Like I was locked, right? And so yeah, that was another, then we did a lot of, big pass Back then it was$200. Yeah. And you could, it was Sugarbush end stove. That's what got me to ow, no doubt. Yeah, it was perfect. So that really was another sort of pivotal moment that, that got me to ow And then now fast forward, here I am. I was looking for jobs. This was like the third piece in that puzzle. I was looking for jobs in different places, east coast, all over mountain town, Sandy and I really had the sort of, we wanted to live where people vacationed and. I saw this opportunity in Vermont, and obviously I had been here for nine years and in Stowe I came up here and it was the season of 2000, 2001 as a 430 inch season. Yeah. Again, magic. Like I arrived. It's magical. Yeah. And I said, gosh, this really feels like home. It really felt like home. And I was connecting with my buddies from med school. We were still in Vermont, and my mentors and people that I knew here, I, it just felt right, Nice. And so it, if this had changed with the military, again, like I said, I would've gladly gone, but it likely would've changed my trajectory on where I wound up For sure. And I'm so glad and fortunate because, just have fallen in love with this town and the people and the community and so I'm so glad that I was here and. a little known story. funny though. I get here that first month and it's chaotic, and I'm going down to Newport. I'm seeing what I can help, with. So right after that, I start taking call and my beeper goes off and, and, that, so I was like, okay. So I answered the phone and they said, can you come in, to the hospital, to help out with OB GYN? I said, but I'm an orthopedic surgeon. And they're like, I know, but sometimes the OB GYN docs need some support and help, they need an extra set of hands. And I was like, okay, sounds good. And that day to, to rekindle another piece was I had visited here and there was no swimming facility. Yeah. So here I arrive in September, 2001 to the opening of the swimming hall. Oh, wow. So I get reconnected with Jake, who I met in 1994. Oh wow. who had injured his leg and I happened to be on call when they were transferring him over. Okay. And I was on the trauma team at the time, so like all of a sudden we've got a pool and now they, they start aow water polo team. Like I played one because we talked about this. Water polo is exhausting. It's exhausting. Unbelievable. And so here I was thinking, the only one chink in STOs armor for Mike, wanting to be here was lack of a swimming pool, right? Yeah. And here I ride that month, 2001 and it's the opening of the swimming hall and they're starting a water polo team. And I'm just, my head's spinning, can this really be real? So anyway, back to, I get the call. So that day I meet, this other woman, fina Johnson. Fantastic, woman, great connector. and I've since connected with a lot of Bahamians and. Anyway, we were playing water polo that day and I happened to get out of the water. She and I were in the, on the same team and sitting on the side of the pool and I said, where are you from? And she said, The Bahamas. I said, oh, really? Cool. One of my fraternity brothers, was from The Bahamas. And I said his name and she's oh, he was my neighbor growing up. And so a small world. And then she was the one who invited us to dinner that night. And Sandy never met her, but I had met her. So I dropped Sandy off to an unknown house'cause I have to go to the hospital and help with an OB GYN case. But we came back, everyone laughed a little bit about it, but it was fantastic. I was just helping out. I wasn't doing the operation, but, it was nice. I got to meet the, some of the new people, the other surgeons and, got a real, initial, test into a community hospital. And it was part of what I was really looking for and. And part of what I felt, there was, there were two things. One is I spent some time in big academic institutions and you can get lost as a number. Like it really, like you could just, really get lost as a number and the, and it's a center like that and they do great care and there's a lot of cutting edge work that's being done. And then in a community hospital, sometimes things are maybe a little antiquated or, but people are really taking great care of you and they really care about you. And I always felt like you could do both. You could have high quality academic style, academic. Surgical excellence, care, commiserate it with, family, right? You treat people the way they should be treated. And, and I felt like that could be a combination. And that's something that I always was a driving force and for me and that day, just yeah, here I am. this is a really cool town. Yeah. my first case under my belt, helping another dock here. And is this at Copley? At Copley. Okay, cool. Yeah. Copley, I want to confirm that. Yeah, no, at Copley. Nice. And, that's cool. Yeah. So I, it just really all fit together. 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And then yeah, we were just gonna talk about how, so now you're in sto, you're starting to perform surgeries. How do you make your way to the US snowboard team? Yeah. Thanks for circling me back. I got off on a little tangent there. it was a good tangent. Yeah. Good stuff. We used to say, Jake and I would talk sometimes and it would always like. you had something on your mind that you wanted to say and then we'd say to the other person, inset, oh, I've got this extra story I wanna tell you. But, so fast forward. Okay, so here I am in Stowe and I got connected with the swimming hole. And then, I got a call from a friend, a colleague, who had been on the board at MMSC, and it was shortly after I got here and he said, would you be interested? And I didn't have any kids. And I was like, yeah. And they had a snowboarding group at the time. I met Bud Keen and Nice. And so I was passionate, snowboarder and passionate about all sports. and so I reached out, I got on the MMSC board and then I made a call to Steadman because I had this world class athlete program experience in Europe. And I said, Hey, I'd like to, combine my. Vocation and my vocation, and I'd love to do some work with, the athletes. And they have a, a program there where they have doctors that are assigned for, skiing, snowboarding, and both really, at the same time. So I applied and, I get sent on my first mission the next year to New Zealand with the US Women's, ski team. So it was Christina Cosic and Sarah Schlepper, and Man cua and Lindsay Kilda before, so it was a, it was the top tier, And so I'm in New Zealand, I'm snowboarding and I'm slipping the course for them. This is, we're having the best time. And I was helping them out with some nagging stuff. And so anyway, it was, that was the start. Yeah. Got. And then from there they gave me the two thumbs up and then I started traveling with the snowboarding team. And, yeah, that just started. All, all over the place. I do a couple of, weeks a year traveling to different venues, Europe, south America, wherever they were training or whether wherever there was event, fi event, many years at Telluride.'cause that became the home of the border cross team, which was really cool. so yeah, that, that took me all over really X Games, multiple times, as the doc. And so you were doing that and then back to Copley between and back Copley? Yeah. Yeah, back here. And then that first couple of months, so I got here September, October, so around November is refresher day, ski patrol. Yeah. at the time my partner, Glen Neal was on ski patrol, Bruce Levitt, other guys that, that I knew colleagues and they invited me to give a lecture on trauma and and helped teach the ski patrol. And it was like. My fraternity brothers. Again, we just bonded and I helped out with ski patrol, so I was on ski patrol from 2001 until it was bought by veil, basically. Yeah.'cause all the rules changed and, and we couldn't commit that much time. But we got up there, we did lectures every month. We did the refresher. It was a great way to circle the medical education because we would see the patients come in and have an injury and get a little bit of the background, but not the whole thing. And then we would take care of them, we would patch them up and and then we would take these cases back up to ski patrol and we would review them and we'd say, okay, who was on scene? What did you see? How did you do? What were your first reactions? Did you remember X, Y, Z? who did you call? And then how did you transport them? So we went through the whole drill. All the way, to Copley all the way through the treatment. And so it was great for them to see the whole progression. It was a really good learning. It was good learning for us, on both ends. And then we did on hill work and training as well. It's a good partnership. Yeah. Really was. And great team. really highly qualified guys. he's got a lot of EMTs, a lot of really qualified people, like almost overqualified in some ways. But it speaks to the level of the Stowe Ski Patrol program. it's the oldest in the country. It's 1934 origin. And, it's got a really rich history. Yeah. And it's incredible. and I was honored to be part of it for so many years. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're operating on elite athletes and did you operate on any snowboarders like that are on the Olympic team, is that a little extra pressure on you than operating on, 70-year-old guy who, addicted a tear? Yeah, it's, somewhat patient confidential, but, I can't, yeah, HIPAA hip, of course. Yeah. No, a lot of the US team folks, I did the surgeries and, and, other very famous people Yeah. That, that had surgery and knee replacements and other things that, it's a good question. One that does come up sometimes, how do you get yourself into that zone? you can let yourself get spun out. pretty quickly thinking about the ramifications and who's under the drapes and so forth. Yeah. But when you build a team, you build in a level of confidence, in that, in yourself and the team that they're draped. It's a knee, like any other knee. You don't veer from your routine. You stay the course. You do it just like you always do it. Nobody gets too worked up. it's business as usual. And that's how you do it. Yeah. And then sometimes afterwards there's a little bit of a. Okay. All right. We're on the other side. That went well. but, we were dealing with a lot of serious injuries and high level, people in the military too that were very important for mission critical. so it's all the same. Yeah. Just, whether you're a high level athlete or a seal or you're, yeah. you take everything seriously. Surgery is a very serious, situation. but it comes with time. You do 10,000 cases, you get more experience. You continue to grow upon that, and it's something that gets better. It's an art, and you perfect it. Totally. Yeah. With time. Yeah. I was just gonna say, I just remember when Lisa had her ACL, replaced and they said, do you want to use a cadaver ligament? And I was thinking to myself, I'm like, can we pick which, can we get the Jamaican Sprinter, not the, old guy? that's a very interesting, story because we do pick, yeah. Right now we don't know anything about the patient, and their background per se. But we know their age and we know their sex. And so I tend to choose only certain graphs processed a certain way, from younger males. Yeah. Generally. And, there's just, there's hormonal differences. There's not, it's not bad or good necessarily, but you don't even wanna optimize what your choice is there. Yeah. And so we have a tissue bank and you get to choose Yeah. To some degree. They're harder to get, obviously, those types of graft. But Yeah. And we don't use that many, Cadaver grafts. for young athletes, we typically use more of their own tissue. Yeah. but you need them. And, in fact, really, I don't even wanna talk about some exciting things, but a colleague of mine, a guy that I got to know a few years back and I was teaching a course in Australia, he's developing a kangaroo called the Xenograft. And they're processing in a way that has no antigenic, capabilities. It's a collagen, raw collagen. So still very preliminary. But, we're on a search, always on a search in medicine to better products, better techniques, how to do it differently and, get a better outcome. so you spoke to your mindset going into a surgery,'cause I was thinking about this getting ready for the episode, just what's it like, and you talked about mindset, do you have a routine before a surgery or what are you doing to prep and take care of yourself? Yeah. There are a couple of things. number one, preparation. Yeah. Okay. So part of that is visualization. I visualize every step in the surgery, visualize what I'm going to do with my hands, what instruments I'm gonna going to use. I. Started very early on after you leave residency, you're working with attendings and there's so support always around you and there's someone else's case card. So they've developed what instruments, what case they're doing and so forth. So now all of a sudden you're on your own. So I had to develop the setup, how I wanted someone to be positioned on the table. Yeah. What kind of drapes I wanted, what instruments I wanted. Okay. And then the sequence of step 1, 2, 3, right to 20 or whatever it was, of how I was gonna do that case and what instrument I was using for each step. And then I would go into the scrub tech. sometimes it was a really complicated case the day before, and I would say, let's debrief, right? Or let's get ready for this and let's ramp up. and we would get in line, we'd get in sync. And it's a little bit like doing a dance. Yeah. So you have a pa, a nurse, scrub tech, there with you often. And I was very fortunate. Best scrub tech I've ever scrubbed with, I had a nurse and a scrub tech who are really seasoned. so scrub tech, Sandy Hamill, and, nurse Judy Stancliffe been in the business for 40 years. Okay. In fact, some of the things that are dedicated over at the hospital on their behalf, because they were just the best in their profession. So we would talk about these types of things to get prepared so that when we went into surgery, we knew exactly what was going to happen. Yeah. And when you operate, you have your mindset. I wanna look at that. Patient's need as seriously and as focused as I can. So when I'm not turning my head looking around, I'm putting my hand out in a way that the instrument's taking outta my hand. The next instrument is put back into my hand exactly how I'm going to use it. Yeah. Not upside down. Amazing. And so this is really a dance. Yeah. And it doesn't happen overnight. You have to work hard at it. You have to, debrief afterwards what went well, what didn't go well, what can we improve? And so you gotta plan ahead of time, gotta get your team ready and and you gotta have to be prepared to think on your feet.'cause things can go Yeah. awry. The sign of a good surgeon isn't someone that just can do the case every time. It's when things don't go well and it's the human body and things are challenging and sometimes the brain will fracture or this will happen or, it's not often, but you have to be prepared to know what to do. Yeah. On the spot. Yeah. I've always thought of you as someone always looking for innovation and advancements in what you do. Has there been a lot of these. In the last 20 years has it? Or is it really standard stuff? Yeah. I think, all of it is built on a foundation. we build on the father's past, the things that some of our predecessors have worked on. so I, I do have that sort of curiosity always, even, day to day like, why am I doing it this way and could I do it differently? Or what if we did this, or what if I had an instrument that was bent this way? Wouldn't it be easier at all? Hold. So I was innovative in the way to develop new instruments and and that really goes back to when I was in New York City and we were working on. New bone graft materials and and that was novel at the time. And so how could we avoid the trauma of taking a bone graft by mixing different compounds together to create like a super bone graft Without taking it from you. Yeah. And then, when I was in practice, I just thought every case, like, how can we do it differently? and I got connected, a few early on with a few industry, companies, med tech companies, and, started to innovate, designing new implants, designing new minuscule repair devices, ACL surgeries. and it was, just a great synergy between the engineers and the doctor me. And usually a couple other doctors. And, and then to, I. Manage that through the creative process of,'cause engineers have a certain perspective, but we as surgeons have a certain perspective and that's where we have to come together to make it absolutely make the magic right to, to make something that really is impactful in how we do day to day. I started in 2008 with a colleague. We were developing a technique. we did the first, inhuman study at Copley, excuse me. And, that was on a bone, void filler that was used to strengthen bone for people that had osteoporosis, weak bone potentially to, mitigate their, potential for a fracture. When bones get weak, they're more brittle, they break easily. so that was really phenomenal and that took off, down the path eventually into some private investment and, and now is well down the track. I actually done some work with them over the last couple few years on education, building out, 70 sites across the globe. Better part of 700 surgeons training on this, very, important study that's going soon to the FDA. Wow. So that was really innovative. Yeah. Thinking differently, how could we use something that I was using over here for trauma? How could we use it to prevent a fracture? and then I think the biggest one really, a leap if you will, from the standard innovation pipeline, something that was more transformative was, customization, mass customization. So we had always one-off custom implants and, but they were not used that often. Big tumor cases or big traumas. But this was really mass customization. And, my role of where my niche was the middle aged athlete. So it was sports and joint replacement. And, not. Every joint replacement patient is 75 or 85 years old. Some are 45, 55. Yeah. And we knew that a knee replacement wasn't necessarily a hundred percent success and there were, about 20% of people weren't satisfied. for various reasons. And particularly these younger patients who really were demanding more out of their knee replacement. And, I needed something different. So I had, been approached about customization and I was one of the early adopters. 2008 actually partial, customized knee implants and then ultimately into total knee, implants. And then on the design team, multiple different design teams over a span of, roughly 10 years. and I was really a game changing. technology. It was a software program that could analyze the knee and restore the knee to neutral mechanical axis. And there was some, wiggle room we had but it took some of the less optimal positioning that we had to accept sometimes. And some of that led to downstream. Challenges, like a symmetric implant isn't how your knee is shaped. Your knee is asymmetric. And to be able to really resurface the knee rather than replace it. And they used to say that a knee replacement was really a soft tissue procedure. And that's true.'cause you go and you make the cuts and put the new implant on and then you have to release all the soft tissues to balance it out and then put different shims in the middle. This one, this customization was really resurfacing. So we're keeping the natural shape and contour. So the kinematic profile was much different and you could see it right away. So that really changed the trajectory of my practice and the customization. And now, we're continuing some of that innovation and working. On the design. I'm also on the board of another company, called On Point, who is the preeminent, developer of, augmented reality for orthopedic surgery. And, we are already through FDA approval. We're commercialized. We're proving out product market fit right now, and it's absolutely incredible. So you are wearing glasses? We're wearing glasses, yeah. So augmented reality, think about taking your phone and. And putting up to the sky and you can see the constellations. Yeah. So it tells you where you are. And think about the old school surgery, even when, just 20 years ago, we would have, a sheet of an MRI or an x-ray and we put it up on, and we'd go and we'd look at it and we'd go back to the, the patient and we'd operate and we'd have this visual in our head. We had to really be spatially aware and be able to take that image and create it. And layer it on. Layer it on. And now, think about, flying a plane too, back in whatever, 1930 or something. You didn't have that many instruments. now you're flying F 16 and everything's right in your face. You know exactly where your, target is, et cetera. Same thing with surgery, and it's a bit like democratizing the art of surgery in some way. So we put these glasses on, the glasses and the headset have fiducial arrays, little markers that are linked to a camera, that are linked to the patient has markers on. We trace it. And that's all linked to, x-rays, CT scan, MRI. So now we can utilize all of those components. and our instruments are all linked, so we can tell within sub millimeter accuracy exactly where we want to put that hole. Wow. And we can then rotate around. So lining up the circles, red, yellow, green, to have subdegree accuracy where we want to put a screw or where we want to put a rod. And so it's layered on right, on your glasses. And, it's, you're looking at a live, so instruments, the patient, your headset is all linked together. Now across the table is your resident. It's amazing teaching tool too. So they're watching what you're doing, you can watch what they're doing. Operative. Yeah. Wow. So it is, it's amazing, right? just on off the charts kind of game changer. And I think it's not just to democratize the art of surgery for younger surgeons, that are new and getting going and creating. Likely some of the, a quicker learning curve, less of that, 10,000 case thing. But, it's also for seasoned surgeons too, really complex deformities. Things that are really challenging that maybe aren't in their day-to-day program are gonna make them, better. It's cool, more accurate. And ultimately what we hope is to be, benefit for the patient as well. as I mentioned in the intro, you were diagnosed with leukemia in 2018. could you take us back to that moment when you were diagnosed? what was that like for you and your family? yeah. Thanks Ted. It's, it was a tough time. I had, it was the summer of 2 20 18. I hadn't been feeling very good. I had just gotten back from a trip and I was in Australia. teaching, surgeons over there about custom knee implants. And, I was incredibly tired. I thought it was jet lag, but it was like off the chart, tired. I couldn't drink enough coffee. I was coffee in Advil and yeah. Anyway, I got back and I just figured I needed a break. But at the time, I was starting, two new companies. one was called Baris. It was virtual and augmented reality for surgical education system. And another one was, Med-IQ, which was bringing in AI to help, navigate patients through to the right surgeon at the right time, So forth. And so I was super busy then, but I just thought I was overworked. Yeah. So fast forward, I had a family vacation. We went down to Nags, head to North Carolina, 25 of us. Hans is one of 20, one of 15. So all the parents and all the kids, and it was ma it was so fun. And a big house. And from there I flew to South America to Chile and I was doing a heli trip. At, for fun. For fun. Okay. For fun. Total. For fun. Yeah. This is a fun trip. So somebody had recruited you? Yeah. Yeah. No, I know. No, this is a total fun trip. and I just figured I'd take, a little more time than I usually do. And I recharge the batteries reset. And I remember a moment there on that trip, when I got there and we were at, whatever, 10, 12, 13,000 feet. And, we had little dicey conditions and we were, had a good chunk of the day in and Jake said, this call quit. And I was always like, no, never say last. it's always two skip, Yeah. Two more. Skip the last. And but I was like, yeah, that sounds good. I was exhausted, right? Yeah. And, and I came back. So I was so much energy from a great trip like that in the mountains and it was so incredible. So another week went by and I did this little mini triathlon, out to the. trout club on our bikes, run around the trout club, swim out to the buoy and then bike back. And so I couldn't go. I just, my legs wouldn't go. And I got home and I was having trouble walking up the stairs and I still was working. And I called, threw up the white flag one night at two in the morning. I checked my pulse. It was 85. I called Copley, talked to Adam Putnam. I was like, something's not right. It's my heart or my head. I don't know what it is. Went in, had blood tests. Sure enough, I was what call pan cytopenic of my blood count. My red blood count was 15, should be about 45 or 48. So I was, I didn't have enough oxygen carrying and I don't know how I was functioning. On all at this, all these months. Yeah. Stubbornness definitely for sure. I remember looking in the mirror some morning going, come on, get yourself together because you're a doctor, Doctors are the worst patients. I'm just like, I'm just getting so old. And, So anyway, fast forward, I went in, they checked the blood and then they said, you gotta go to UVM right now. Gave me four units of blood. Went up there instantly. A bunch of my friends came, my colleagues, saw Marty Bach in the er. My other buddies from med school came down, boom. They got right on it. checked for a bleed and so forth. Came back into the hosp. That was Wednesday, Thursday, a bunch of tests. Friday morning, bone marrow biopsy. called me Friday afternoon, said you have leukemia. I. And I was like, I remember sitting in the car. I was like, okay. Wow. I knew it was something, I knew it was, something was wrong. Yeah. And I remember one of the nurses I was working with at the time, I said, I feel like I'm dying. something's not right. So here I had a diagnosis, so in some way I was relieved. the other side was like, okay, get ahold of yourself. Like it's not a great thing to have here. So I went home that weekend and he said, we'll know more on Monday. We're gonna call you on Monday, tell you what kind you have. So I, okay. So that weekend I did a bare minimum reading figure out, what I need to know. And it is helpful having a little medical background. Yeah. I'm sure to make that, those connections and questions. Monday I get a call. Of course it's, spring seasons. Hans gets, we're standing in the side of the field for JV soccer and find out Hans has gotten pulled up to varsity and we're not even at the field. And I got the call saying, you gotta get down here right away. I couldn't be treated at UVM, I had a certain type of leukemia called the Philadelphia Chromosome Positive and I had to go down and be on a trial at Dana-Farber. So that was happening fast. And so that night we told Hans, which was very challenging. Yeah. was he, he listened, processed, didn't ask a lot of questions at first, excused himself to his room. Went up an hour later, we hugged it out. and then the next day I had to go to Dana-Farber. And, I never had a chance to, drive Hans to school usually'cause I was already at work. So this morning I drove him to school and, got, where the pull around is there. So I'm dropping him off and he gets outta the car and the door's open, and then I thought the door was just gonna shut. And I was like, all right, have a good day, buddy. And, then he leans down and he says, dad, you've got this. Wow. And I was like, oh, I used to say it to him all the time. Yeah. Yeah. But now he Table turn. Yeah, table turn. Yeah. So down to Dana-Farber admitted right on a protocol chemo. for a week I was there and then came home. And then I had to manage, 300 cases scheduled and my partners were absolutely phenomenal. The nurses, everybody pitched in. My family was incredible. Helped out the community was unbelievable, like the outpouring and love and support. It was just, yeah, it was, it supported me, it lifted me up. It gave me the energy and the fight to go forward. And Sandy was a total rock. Couldn't have done it without her. I did that through the fall, had spinal chemo, had regular chemo, heavy duty steroids, trying to finish up, still trying to work to some degree as much as I could. And then, they had to find a donor, right? I had no brothers or sisters, so bone marrow banks, they were checking everywhere. Finally a match with a donor in Germany. And, interesting because that's my heritage, right? And the, yeah, so here I have a German donor. I've actually met with, I matched with. Four or five of them and, donors. But they've picked, there were two young males in their twenties and got one, one of those donors. And, and once they found that and he was a perfect match, then, I went in for what's called my ablative. So they, it's like resetting your computer, right? They reboot it completely. and so they give you heavy duty chemo, heavy duty, full body radiation as much as your max dose, which you're signing all the forms. And you can talk about all this with the docs and you know what's coming. They put ports that two in each side into your heart to give all these toxic drugs. And, so after I have, good. Better part of a week of no sleep chemo. then I start the radiation and I remember so sick, like violently sick. I blew blood vessels in my eyes. I was so sick, from the radiation. And I said to the doc one day, I said, I'm just so sick. Can, is there something else you can give me? He said, you have radiation poisoning. It's you've had as much radiation as you would get at Chernobyl. I'm going, what? Like it sunk in. Like you had to use that analogy. And, Anyway, I got through that. So that's the wipe out, right? Then they wipe out everything in your system, and then you get the bone marrow and, and the way it works, it's a transplant, but it, it's a big bag of blood. It looks like it's pink, but it looks like a big bag of blood and, it's super cold and they put it into your port really fast. And I remember shivering and visualizing and being, those last co those months leading up to that, meeting with friends and just having the fight and the visual. And even when I was getting these toxic chemicals, just thinking of how. Important they were and what they were doing this medicine. This medicine. Yeah. Even though they were making me feel totally, really terrible, I had to keep focusing on, that's what hy said, destruction of these cells. And Hy and I shared this, and this was a really, tough time for both of us. And she's one of my dearest friends. and we went through a lot together at, yeah. So visualization, fighting mode. And getting through that. And then I remember them saying, if it works,'cause they pump it into your bloodstream and then these cells are smart, they know where to go. So they start going down to your bone marrow and they said in three or four days, five days, if you start getting aches and pains, then that means it's going where it should. Oh wow. And about four days in, I started having these incredible pains in my femur, in my pelvis. And so I was like, oh, this is great. I'm loving it. And I was in a bubble for about a month. And, and that was pretty tough. but I got out of there and got home and, I couldn't really see many people, but some of the nurses came and helped me and I had, just great care. And and that's all you can do. It's stay positive, stay focused, fight it, soak in all the energy from your family, friends, and community. yeah. Yeah. I can actually share a story. I dunno if you probably remember this. We went to Sterling Valley for a skin up to the top of Sterling Valley with Brian and you were, I don't know how deep in you were coming out the other side, but Yeah, it was about, it would've been the next year. Yeah, next year. Still really weak. And it was probably a group of 12 of us. Yeah. And we. We got to the top nice. and you were like, Nope, I'm going to the top. And I remember that we kept turning around let's turn around. Don't know if you can do it. You're like, no, I'm doing this. it's amazing. It was to, to the point, it takes a village, right? And it took all the guys around me, cheering me on to some degree to do that. And what had happened is. After my transplant, I came home, and this was right before Covid maybe, or around that time, but I wound up getting something called graft versus host disease, which is where the graft that I got from my donor started attacking my body and I couldn't eat. and it, I fortunate that it's relatively mild, but it, I lost 60 pounds. I was 120 pounds and, and I was skin and bones. I couldn't even barely look at myself really. So I had lost a lot of muscle and, and so to do something like this, to push forward and to have all that support for people around meant the world to me, it was unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think, a lot of people that go through it, my wife went through cancer, it changes your. Perspective on life and community and family. Has it changed the way you think about life at all? Yeah. hard not to. Yeah, I think you would be maybe a bit, I dunno what the right word would be, but you're just not being as thoughtful if it didn't change you in some way. Yeah. for me, but in a positive way. In a positive way. Very. That's the amazing thing about it. Yeah. In a weird way. Yes, exactly. Mike. just grateful really in a way. and I do sometimes have to remind myself of it. Sometimes, you can have frustrating things happen in life, really grateful for every day and desirous of more. and I just always signed off on my caring bridge onward, moving forward, always forward, today and this is what we have and we're gonna make the best of it. But always trying to move forward but not dwelling on the future. And I think that gratitude really helps and mindfulness and Mishy really is an incredible person to help remind you of that and get back into nature when you can. it's very grounding. We're living it. That's why we're all here surrounded. It's surrounded by, it's just, yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's beautiful. So we're gonna shift gears a little bit to what we call rapid fire. Oh, the rapid fire round. It should be nothing for a surgeon, right? They're used to all this pressure. Yeah, totally. Alright, first question. Scalpel or snowboard? I have to pause because I don't know what the context is, right? Which do you pick? Which do you pick? Do you get to pick one? Pick? Yep, just pick one. surgery. Alright. Okay. Alright. Robot assisted surgery or do it all alone? Alone. Anesthesia or tequila? Tequila. Playing on the soccer field or playing water polo in the pool. Water polo. Alright. World cup Soccer or snowboarding? Snowboarding. All right. Favorite run at STO on a snowboarding. It depends on the conditions. we'll go powder day. depends what's open, but I, everything's open. Everything's open. Everything's always open. Brian? Yeah. Okay. So I'm, first down, I'm going down Star. I love the fall line and it, and the snow. Snow blows in there. Just the magic. I do probably SF 53, jump in the woods there, probably re Amigos. Christie's worked my way over to Kitty Woods. Definitely hit Jake's. favorite place outside Stowe, you have Snowboarded, gravel. Sto. Powder day or Perfect Bluebird groomer powder. That's an easy one. Silly question. Yeah. Just you never know. You never know. total knee replacement or ACL repair Total knee. Teaching a medical student who isn't getting it or coaching a snowboarder who isn't getting it. You have to pick one. Which one I don't want. Or which you want. What would you rather do? I think I'd be missing some pow and some good runs, so I'd rather teach a medical student. yeah. Good point. Foggy frozen goggles or a dull scalpel. gosh, these are so good. Dull scalpel. All right. All right. Let's talk about your STO life. That was a good rapid fire round, by the way. Yeah, that was good. Some good ones. Kudos to you guys, man. That's creative. Love it. So good ones there. I've seen you in Stowe, right? you go around, you're in the grocery store and people come up to you and ask you questions and have something they want to talk to you about. I think it's amazing, right? You always give your time to the community. I. I, were you happy to do that? Does that just feel you feel like that's kind of part of what you do here in Stowe? Maybe talk a little bit about that. Yeah. You make yourself so available to anybody. Yeah. Thanks for recognizing Mike. I, I, I do, it just what comes natural. I feel like it's the right thing and it never bothers me at all. I just really am, genuinely want to help people out. Yeah. And even when I couldn't work, I always open my phone. to take calls and to help people out. I think it's part of the journey of patient going through a challenging situation. And when you know that you have tools to help them navigate that and help them make decisions, You mentioned moving to Stowe in 2001. How have you seen Stowe change since that time? that is a great question. obviously there are a lot of changes. there's infrastructure and buildings and restaurants that have come and gone, and. I first started coming here in that 80, 7 88 time period, gosh, a lot of changes, but at the same time, it looks different maybe. But, things really haven't changed that much in some ways. the sun still comes up and it sets over the mountains and we got this majestic mountain up there. Th there's always change, And that's inevitable. Yeah. and we have to be engaged here in this community and accept some of that change, and try to make it better for the next generation. And you raised your family here. Your son, Hans, is a high level snowboarder lacrosse player. What was his experience like growing up in Stowe? Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, that is a great question too. he was ball fire like right outta the gate and, really a ball fire. And he was jumping, spinning, elementary school. we got a call, maybe the first day he was jumping off desks, jumping off the thing. This isn't a playground, thank God he's in Stowe. exactly. But so to that point, he had a playground here. Yeah. And we always said, gosh, if I came back as a kid, I'd like to grow up at sto. he was jumping off the bridge Oh yeah. up at Nebraska Valley and he was doing this and just, and we're in Fosters and he's playing every sport under the sun. And at two years old, we strap him in up at the top of the driveway and let him go down. We go down and pick him up, bring him back up, and then at three He was, he was still too young for snowboarding really. But, it was when the parking lot had turned into the bubble, if you remember that. Oh, yeah. And, and so they had, a little ski and snowboarding shop there, and they didn't have equipment really small enough for Hans at the time, but he, we were eating lunch and he was running around and. Next thing you know, he comes back, he's got boots, he's got a board. The guy just gave it to him because he kept going over there and I was snowboarding, obviously. Spectacular. So we strapped him in and we took him off and and that was great. We started and and then, yeah, he was still skiing, snowboarding for a couple years and then about five or six he just started snowboarding and, Yeah, I think he just had a really great sense of the mountain. I thought it'd be a really good, he was a little wild at first on a snowboard, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, right? So I had the not so great idea of getting one of those little leashes, I was like, gonna control him somehow on this leash and I'm on a snowboard. he's pulling you over Probably. he is going for it. Now he's got me twisted up in this thing. It's a mess, right? So I take it off and he beelines, we're over at Spruce. I thought he was gonna go off the trail and into the woods and sure, sure enough, he carves turn and comes back in and, everything was good and he just took off and really. he got invited to the club and he started competing and at, seven he was competing and doing things, just having fun and he, he had a type one diabetic, so I had to be there with him. So it was just an amazing experience to be there with your son all the time and Making sure, he was doing okay medically and, he started competing and by seven eight he's doing back flips into airbags and all kinds of trampoline stuff. And then, yeah, it was, playing all the sports, baseball, basketball, football, and then snowboarding and started playing lacrosse and then things really started to change, I think, once you get up into that upper level, like he won nationals in multiple events and the overall multiple years. So it was really quite a feather. And then Burton was sponsoring him and. it was a great rot run that he had. Yeah. And then he went to wilderness. and, it was ha hard to leave STO because he had such great friends, but they remained all close friends. And then his sto friends became friends with his Holness friends. Yeah. and that's continuing on into college and Nice. but I remember, he did his freshman year here and he played lacrosse and he played soccer and he snowboarded in the winter. But Holden has had an airbag and they have mountains right there. And they have a snowboarding club. So he. Gravitated to that, but they didn't know how intense, his desire was to play football. he was a madman on the flag football, but now he got pad. So he had never really played tackle football. Played awesome. he was loving it. Loving it. So now he goes to holiness and he is loving the football Nice. And then snowboarding in the winter. And then lacrosse. And then lacrosse. Yeah. And so his first football game, he goes, gets the pitch, boom, and out five guys. Touchdown. Now they go back on offense again. Another touchdown lacrosse coach comes up, say, who is this kid? So then that's how the, he became connected with this new coach, and Justin was a great guy and took him under his wing a little bit. And then, Hans, had a incredible career. Football and Yeah. All American, I believe, right? Yeah. All American. He was a player of the year for the nep sac for football. He was all American lacrosse captain of the team, twice for lacrosse, once for football. Like really, he blossomed athletically and academically. He really became a student there. Is he going into medicine? Heck no. he is I was gonna ask that if you didn't. No. Yeah. that's, think go the other way, right? Yeah. Something like that. I don't know, it just never was in his core. Yeah. he's a numbers guy, finance guy. when he was 14, he came to me one day and he said, Hey dad, I think I want to go into business and not really sure. How to do it. Yeah. And and I'm not necessarily a business guy. Maybe a few street smart thing, but, but we sat down and we had a whiteboard and we first started by, I was asking him what's important in your life? that's hard of a 14-year-old, what do you see in your life?'cause that's the start. You gotta be introspective and think ahead. So we put some things down, family and experiences and so forth. And then he had a bunch of attributes. I asked him what things he really thought highly of, like resilience, perseverance, dedication, hard work, leadership, boom. He was just laying them out. We just made a big list and then it just started looking like a Christmas tree and we put. Contacts together and education and experiences and right down to where he was. And, and then he just looked at it. He is great. Okay. and then he just started doing it. Yeah. And it, it takes a very, nebulous thing out there. I want to do a career in, of drill down, drill it down. How do I Gives you a roadmap. You do to do roadmap. how do you climb the mountain, right? Yep. One step at a time. We touched on this, just about as far as Stowe and change. What is your hope for Stowe in the next five to 10 years? Yeah, gosh, that's a another good question. And I think, from tying in a medical, and I think our town is very recreation focused, right? Yep. So I'd really like to see that synergy between high quality medicine Orthopedics and, injury prevention care for the community, dovetailed in with our recreation. I, I think that's a key fundamental here in town. And obviously I'm a little biased because it's the combining all the things that are close to my life, I think, Obviously the, economic sustainability here. we've, we're rising into a spot where it's really hard for people to come here economically, I think. the lower hanging, traffic and affordable housing or not, they're not low hanging fruit, but those are things we can start with. Yeah. and build upon that. So that there are opportunities for young people to join this, community that is vibrant and strong at its heart. It attracts people that, have this common bond of outdoors and nature. And I think what I'd hate to see is that be to be lost and, and so we need to. Think of our future generations in that regard, and where are the hurdles, where are the impediments? We need to lower those hurdles. We need to be more accepting to have those individuals come, because that's gonna be the future and vibrancy of our town. And I know a few young folks who I've become close with and try to, I, I have that, that feel that white, bright eye, bushy tailed when I, when Sandy and I came here and how great it was and how welcoming people were. So I want to be that welcoming to those new people. Yeah. Absolute. That are coming in. And I think that's what I'm hopeful for, that we can be that place that it always has been, it attracts a commonality, but between people, the outdoors, they're all really interesting people. And I know long, shortly after we moved here, I said to Sandy one day, as a wa people are just genuinely really happy here. Yeah. and I think because they've often worked through hurdles. To make it a point to be here. Yeah. Yeah. So just like coming up from New York, they could stop at places and Ski a Ride, that are closer to New York, but they made that extra effort up here. That's a good point. People make the extra effort to jump through hurdles, jump through this, whatever it is. We as a town need to help lower some of those hurdles, keep them low so that influx of quality people can continue to, migrate here. That's awesome. Good point. That's great. All right, Brian, we finish all of our episodes with one question. If STO did not exist, where would you be living? I did think about this'cause I, I heard someone else answer the same question and, it's hard to reproduce this magic here. And, and I also feel very fond of the seasons, so that's hard. and even the other day, Hans and I were talking about how cool it is when all the leaves aren't on the trees and you can see into the woods, so people don't talk so much about stick and mud season, but Oh, those are some of my favorite seasons. Exactly. Oh yeah. I love it. Ted Moose Antler Hunt. Don't get me going about the spring hundred. You can see for miles. You walk in the woods. love it. Yeah. You gotta come mo Sandler hunting with me. Okay, let's do it. Alright, so back to your question is where I think, a connection that I have is with Frisco. In Colorado. Yeah. And next the Breckenridge. Yeah, it's great. It's a good town. It's a great town. It's a time, it's a small town. Really cool people. Nice, great medical right there. you got Breck, you got copper, you got Lake Dillon. It's close to Denver. I don't know, it's, it has a little bit of the sweet sauce, the secret sauce I should say. this is unbelievable.'cause I went there this winter. My friend moved to Breckenridge and we went out in Frisco a couple times. I'm like, this would be a cool town to live in. So Sandy and Hans lived there for multiple winters and he would go and train there from when he was like. Nine, 10 to maybe 13. 14. And so we got to know the town a little bit, right? And so all of those elements in some way, if you want a BC adventure, you go to Revel, you want a European thing. There's all, there's uniqueness. But I think Frisco, if I had to pick one, I'd miss a little bit of the seasons. They have some seasons, but not the same. But it has that small town feel that has all the dynamics. Interesting people. Good, medicine close by, athletic outdoor folks. Yeah, it's a great call. It's a good choice. All right. Thank you so much, Brian. Thanks Brian. Welcome guys. It was really a pleasure. Appreciate it. Yeah. Hope you enjoyed that episode of the Octagon Podcast. Remember to like us on Instagram and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. See you next time.