Season 2: #2 Charles Safford: 18 Years Serving as Stowe's Town Manager

This week we had the pleasure of welcoming into The Octagon studio Charles Safford. Charles is the Town Manager of Stowe, Vermont, a role in which he serves as the CEO of the town -  responsible for day-to-day municipal operations, advising and implementing Select board policy, and shepherding the town’s budget to the voters’ consideration. Charles has served in this role for 18 years and has guided Stowe through many transitions and changes to make the town what it is today.

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This episode of the Octagon Podcast is brought to you in part by Archery Close and Union Bank. Hey, this is Chris and Taste from Archery Clothes, your go-to boutique. For men's and women's fashion, we carry a curated selection of clothing, footwear, and gifts from unique and emerging brands. We're proud to sponsor the Octagon and even prouder to be local business owners here in Stowe. We love how the Octagon captures the history and characters of this incredible town. After coming off the slopes or the trails, stop by archery close. Located at 1650 Mountain Road in Stowe. Open seven days a week, or always open online@archeryclose.com. Since 1891, union Bank has made banking a little bit easier and more convenient for you by investing in the success of its local community. Your community headquartered in Mooresville Union Bank has 18 branches and three loan centers throughout Northern Vermont and New Hampshire. Union Bank is a proud supporter of the Octagon Podcast, as well as many fantastic community oriented endeavors such as the STO Trails Partnership, the Vermont Ski and Snowboard Museum, and the STO Land Trust to name a few of the over 200 nonprofits they work with. To learn more, go to ub local.com. Welcome listeners to the Octagon Podcast, where we explore the stories, people, and places that make Dover Vermont so legendary. I'm your host, Mike Carey, joined by my co-host Ted Thorndyke. We are excited to introduce our guest today, Charles Safford. Charles is the town Manager of Stove, Vermont. A role in which he serves as basically the CEO of the town responsible for day-to-day municipal operations, advising and implementing select board policy and shepherding the town's budget to the voter's consideration. Welcome, Charles. Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate, the opportunity to be a guest. Yeah. Great to have you on this beautiful September day. It's a bonus day. Beautiful. September's just a spectacular time of year. We were just talking usually in the past. Charles was telling us it's a quiet time of the year, but not these days, and he's looking forward to bow hunting season. Absolutely. Yeah. We were just saying it used to be that, it had a little ebb and flow. Mm-hmm. Right. And at least you got mud and stick season off. But not even that anymore. It's like there's a lot going on in stove nonstops, and the leaves are changing ever so slowly. I've noticed some. A few. Yeah, they're good. I've noticed some, I assume people will start rolling in for leaf peeping in the next week or two. Maybe a brief break as far as tourism numbers right now. Right now, school has ended. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that things slow down a little bit on the sidewalk in front of Ley, but once those leaves start popping, they'll be back in town, they'll be coming and it's all a timing thing. It's interesting. Some people just miss it and you feel a little bad for'em, know they've traveled, but it is what it is, and then you get that one storm that takes all the leaves off the tree That's right. And blows them off. That's right. Alright, so you've been town manager STO for 18 years. maybe just give us some background. what brought you to Stowe? how did you get started In town Government? Yes. I really got started in town government. I was going to Keen State College. I was graduated from Beas Falls Union High School. And about before my junior year, they said I had to declare a major, so I went home. My dad was in the driveway. I said, they just said I had declare a major. He said, what are you taking? I said, economics, poli sci business management. He said, you ever thought about being a town manager? And I said, no, I don't even know what that is. back then it was like international affairs and as a focus. and he said, someone's gotta manage the corporation. It's a public corporation. And I said, that sounds interesting. So I went back and knocked on the city of manager at Keen's Door, pat McQueen, and I said, Hey, I'd like to do an internship for you. I'd like to understand what this council manager or former government stuff is. And, we started talking about, Vermont and Lake Champlain. He liked to sail. And, next thing I know, I'm writing their sign ordinance for him for the City of Keene. So if you go back to through Keene New Hampshire, you see the signs. you can think of me. So that's how I got started and 36 years later you're like, oh, I guess I'm a town manager right now. I'm the longest serving town manager in Vermont. Wow. less than, I think I read the other day, less than 5%. Of municipal managers make it this long in their career or this many years in a particular place. Wow. And yeah, it, it can, because it wears on them. you think that, I think, sometimes they move up to different communities, but sometimes the wind shift, And, And it, so it has, its, it has its professional risk, right? If you're not able to shift with the wind. that's why I try to stay apolitical and And, follow the council's, direction and, move in the direction the community wants. I remember when I was interviewed, they said, what do you want to do? Where do you want to take stow? And I said, And you're not here for me, I'm here for you. I can help do some research, give you my technical advice, but in the end of the day, you have to decide where you want to take the commuter. I'll help you try to get it there. Yeah. Nice. So you talk about, the conversation with your father. Were there any other components that maybe drew you to this position or public service in general? Yeah, I think so, my father was a colonel in the Army. A combat veteran, airborne Ranger and he was also interesting enough, a political science professor and an interesting person. So around my dinner table, we watched the news and we talked about world affairs and civic life and responsibility. And I think, he was willing to put his life on the line. I thought, to some degree, I think that had an influence. can I make this democracy thing work? Can I play my part? Certainly not as great a part as he played over the years, but, I try to do what I can. Yeah. Yeah. So you were at, you were in Keene, New Hampshire. Yes. And then from there. So the day after I graduated from college, I, started working as the administrative assistant to the town manager, in Middlebury, Vermont. Okay. So that was an interesting experience. It was a college town. Yeah. And, and I put in a, about four or so years there, and then the Hardwick job opened up and, the gateway to the Northeast Kingdom and now the food capital, our organic food capital, and, And I went up there and, tried to do my part there. and then I went over to Essex Junction and was the manager there and then ended up in sto. Got it. And, what brought me to STO was I always took a lot of pride in Stowe, skied a couple times here when I was a kid. I remember my mom getting wooden bowls in STO and taking trips to Trap Family Lodge. And, and I was aware of it generally being from Vermont and, the town and Village voted to merge. And so I said, they got a town manager. They don't need two managers. So STO job opened up. I put up my hat in the ring and I remember the day I interviewed, it was a real blizzard and I was the first one and I was standing on the doorstep waiting for the rest of the select board. So I, I think that was a pretty good sign that I was prepared to do what it took. Yeah, you could handle it. Now this was what, 2007? Seven? Yeah. So this is. before the real estate crashed right around that time. Yeah. There was definitely, recession going on. Yeah. And remember they just put in the water and sewer remains to the top of the hill. Yeah. So that was a big project. There's a lot of picking up the pieces after that. And, the downtown was struggling. Some People look at it today and say, are you kidding me? Yeah. But back then yeah. Wasn't, there was a time Yeah. Driving down Main Street where there was not much happening. yeah. I remember one of my, friends from, high school I happened to see on the street and he said. my family's here to visit Stowe, what's there to do? And I gave a pause, right? And it was like, there was, was some stress going on. And so that led to. town studying how we can revitalize the downtown, the vibrancy led to stow vibrancy. And they created a nonprofit. Yeah. They do the events. I heard you guys at the July 4th parade. that's a spinoff of that. Yeah. And I think it played a big part and under grounding the power lines and. Main street sidewalk improvements. That makes it a much, it's almost like a magnet now, right? Yeah. it's funny you mentioned that it's noticeable now. There, there's a buzz, on, on Main Street now. Yeah, absolutely. Greatly. It's a great development. So I have to ask you, I was talking to Chris Jolly. And he wanted me to ask you about the sign ordinance in Hardwick during your time there. So I had to, I don't know, Stove really did. Sto certainly has a sign, or Keen had a sign Ords, but not so much Hardwick. I remember there was a article in, airline Magazine, like how eclectic Hardwick was, it's signs because it literally had no ordinance. But people made'em in their shops or, came up with different stuff and it was okay. It worked, So no sign ordinance, no sign. Ords, the world survived anything. Alright. The world survived. It was not totally anarchy, right? There was some creative juices that came out of it. Good to know. Yeah. So just from a broader perspective, how do you feel living and working in Vermont has, shaped your perspective? yeah. On, community leadership?'cause you've spent a lot of time in Vermont and in different towns and it's a unique state. Yeah. I definitely think you get tied to the land, right? Yeah. If you're not tied to the land, what are you doing in Vermont? A hundred percent. And so I tend to do a lot of things connected and associated with it. And, I say people, I said to Jan Reynolds, one of your former guests, the other day, I was in front of end whistles and I said, I like people, but I love my nature even more. So same, it's Ted, right? You're describing Ted, so that's part of life in Vermont. but I also say,'cause my father was in the service when I was younger, like Plato, you have to get out of the cave, the allegory of the cave. You don't really truly appreciate something till you step out and step back in and get a broader perspective. And so I got that early on in life. as a kid we lived in Burlington and then, my father's last duty station was in Colorado Springs and nothing against Colorado Springs. Nice place but no water. It was the middle of an urban compact. Yeah. And, we moved back to Bella Falls and I felt I was at home again and I stayed here professionally For 36 years. That's where I raised my family and Cool. Where I hope to, you don't be buried if my kids are inclined or spread my ashes, if they will. Yeah. Very cool. I'll leave that up to them. Back to the cave. Yeah. To remark Cave. Nice. so you sent us over this org chart. We gotta dive into what the town, what town manager does. So you are not an elected official, right? who hires you? The select board. The select board hires me. Yeah. And I'm responsible to the five member elected select board. Okay. So equally they collectively make their decisions in public session and, So my job is to advise them, but in the end, it's their decision, the policy and direction of the municipality, the adoption of local laws and the budget. I do my best to advise them after receiving input from the department heads and my feel and sense of where things are at. but they make those decisions and I'm responsible to them as a body. So if three people say, all in favor, that's what I do, then it's my job to make sure it's professionally, to implement that, right? So looking at this org chart, this is a lot going on there, right? Board of listers. Yeah. There is Select Board Town appraiser, arts and Culture Council, library Cemetery Development Review board. A lot. So tell us about your day. the main day in the life of Charles. It's never the same. it's not assembly line work. I can be involved in a personnel matter, a budgetary matter, a legal matter, someone just wanting the ear of someone calling to complain, right? think about what we do as a municipality. We could have custodial custodianship of your kid temporarily during the day at the rec camp. The EMS could be resuscitating the someone's. Heart. And, you got public works trying to lay down infrastructure and you got the police that may be arresting someone. that's a pretty good spectrum. and I gotta tell you, that's giving me a sense of how important the parts of the hole are. There's a lot that takes a community go around, right? Those employees doing all those things, the people, being elected and serving or volunteering, to set policy and the things that don't even involve municipal government, like being a hockey coach or on the rec commission or all those things that, ow wouldn't be ow unless everyone stepped up and did their part. Yeah, no doubt about it. I would imagine, this probably goes without saying, but just, having an even keel Yeah. going into every day because you just, you gotta be ready for anything and you have to work with a lot of different people and personalities. Yeah. You do. I just ran into late in the Torah, that former Tom meeting, moderator my way in. He always had this saying. there's a difference between saying I'm right and believing I'm right. And, it's always interesting me when people are so steadfast and I can see that, that, but at the same time, you have to believe in the collective wisdom of the whole. And that, in my case, as the select board. And that, everybody's opinion has value, and the important thing is, everyone do it civilly. And, we try to find balance points, right? We try to find a public policy that balance point for this moment in time, and then, and that balance point can shift. So I'm almost amazed when, people are so ardent and this is the only right way. Yeah. And I often have to tell my staff, Hey. They're not wrong. And they're not wrong. And they say, what do you mean someone's gotta be wrong? I said, not necessarily. Yeah, that, the truth is somewhere in the middle as people used to say, but it's like, how do we synthesize those ideas? How do we bring out the best for that moment in time and, do the best we can? Yeah, And yeah, you gotta be having even keel and you can't have an ego in this business. Yeah, I believe it. Do you think things have gotten more polarized as the years have gone on? it sounds like I've been here 15 years. Yeah. You've been here longer and I feel like all these issues are always heated. The hockey arena was a heated issue. Yeah. And now it's kinda short term rentals, but I don't know, from your perspective, does it seem more polarized? Maybe social media or online? People can, yeah. There certainly is a sense to hit the keyboard button and hit send. Yeah. And, I think, but then, I think about that sometimes, yeah, it does seem like that people are more ardent or more polarized in their positions and, the arena certainly had it and what was that like 15 years ago? Yeah. Where some people were like, it's gonna end the world if we build Aow Arena. And other people are like, the world will be never to be the same if it's not built. yeah. so what we tried to do is. Take people through a process one step at a time. Let's focus on each aspect of concern that's been raised, and let's sift through that. yeah. and trust in the community to come to a decision, It wasn't up for me to decide whether it was right or wrong. My only responsibility was say, Hey, I get the. Jackson Arena, had a lot of lore, but it's an aged facility. It's not gonna keep going. She did her time. And, she did. I grew up playing there. Yeah. it was cold. it was cold. Best ice in the state. Bruce did his part and the crew to keep her going. But it was a labor of love because it was time. Yeah. Yeah. and so asset for the community, you've gotta decide if that's where you wanna invest your tax dollars, right? Yep. and I learned a lot along the way. everyone knows STO is a ski community, but it's a nice community, right? And it's a great community gathering. Places people connect there, and that's a terrific thing. Yep. A hundred percent. STOs a. Unique town with the tourism component and skiing. Yeah. What do you feel are the biggest challenges in balancing full-time residents, businesses and visitors? Yeah, that's a fair question. All in one melting pot. Yeah. So to speak. It's unique. Yeah. Is it helps, there's a lot going on in sto. I, I, I think about that a lot. And the town plan, the planning commission's, thinking that about that a lot. you know what used to be when I first came here is about heads on beds and making the economy go right. And now it's in, in some ways that wasn't easy, but it's easier than now because now we're trying to find, okay, what's that revised balance point and how do we get there? And there's more talk about sustainable development and what does that mean look like, and that's challenging'cause. we're fiscally challenged, to try to meet those needs. But I think s Stove's reality is it's a four season resort community. Yeah. And that's important to appreciate and understand. It drives our economy. A lot of jobs, gives us opportunity like restaurants that other communities don't have. and I've been in stress communities, right? And at the same time, there's a need for a year-round population. It just can't be an investment opportunity for people. Yeah. It's a, it's stalls pride itself in being a real community, and we need those little league coaches and those, people to be on the select board or serve on the fire department teachers and police officers. To make it all happen. Public works. Exactly. All that stuff. Exactly. it just can't be a place to visit and it just can't be a place to invest in. It's gotta be a place where people live, and that's gonna be the challenge is as people see it as an opportunity to come recreate and, invest in, how do we carve out a place for that? Person that may want to be here six months in a day. Yeah. Yeah. Are there, I'm curious if you look to, I don't know if you talk to other towns like us, like I think we were chatting before about Vail and how it's a whole different thing, but are there towns that you talk to them or talk to their town managers and that we can compare to that you think are doing it well? I think a lot of'em are struggling. Yeah. Yeah. I think, it's, I don't think anyone's. Come up with all the answers. what fund would that be in a democracy. Right. I think they're facing the same challenges as, how do you have affordability, socioeconomic diversity? How do you have a labor force? how do you have a fire department and a changing world. Yeah. And so I think they have things we can draw from. and amazing enough people call us too and say, Hey, what are you doing about X, Y, Z? How's that working for you? Yeah. you know what's the process like as far as working with the select board and other officials to, set the priorities for the town? I think every year they do a goal setting session. Okay. what was our general sense of what we want to try to surround this year? and the planning commission is more in the, mid to long term if you want call it eight years long term. But they spend a little time reflect, more, remove from the day to day. hey, where might we want to head the community? What kind of strategies might we want to consider? So that town plan update process is going on right now. Okay. The planning commission's working hard on it. They did considerable public input and, Hopefully by next October the OR prior, they'll bring it to the select board that's responsible for adopting it and they have to be in align alignment with it. yeah. Cool. So COVID must have been especially a challenging time. Yeah, it was. And this community has grown by leaps and bounds. Yeah. Probably because of COVID, right? It brought so many new people to the area. I don't know. What was that like working through COVI as a town manager? it wasn't easy. It, it was all new. We had to figure it out as we went. ironically, I had to work hard at keeping some of our employees home. Bruce Godden, right? Guy's, A worker by nature and he wanted to show up and I'm like, Hey, we're gonna have to let the lawns grow a little bit. No one's playing on'em right now. And, I love that. we had to do our own form of getting masks out there and saying, Hey, stay socially separated. And a lot of, if not most days, I was the only one in the municipal building. Yeah. I was trying to run the town. and, try to get hold of people when I could. Then we had to figure out Zoom. I didn't even know what Zoom was. Right. The still reporter was you learned quick, I'm sure. Yeah, Lisa Haggerty was the chair at the time and she was a little bit more, gets out more than I do apparently, but she's it's this, you gotta zoom in electronically. And then the paper was like, Hey, you gotta release all these chat function to us. You know about people chatting in the background back and forth. I didn't even know what the, didn't know what Zoom was, much less the chat function. I didn't even know what was on. Yeah. And so we had to figure, maybe that's not a good idea that people are chatting back and forth. They ought to stay tuned to the main conversation. So that was a lot of it. We were glad to come out on the other side and, and you think, a little reprieve, but all of a sudden, Vail had, purchased, the mountain. And people had discovered, sto there was an article and some national papers that said Little Oil County is the safest place in the nation To live. And all of a sudden it was like, boom. we could tell'cause our water usage, that's how we tell what's going through the roof. People were occupying what we once seasonal homes, people were like, hunker it down and they were here. And, and the tide went out some, but not fully. I think Stowe is, if it was on the map before, it's definitely on the map now. yeah. So you've been in this job for many years. What would you say has surprised you the most in your time as Town Manager of Stowe? that's a great question. I don't, it's hard to be surprised after 36 years. There's always something that I think, I've seen it all. And then something, someone will bring up something or want something. Yeah. but I would say the, range of expectations of municipal go government has grown substantially. Yeah. when I first got into the business, it was, Hey, let's keep the roads plowed. Yeah. and, maybe nuts and bolts. Yeah. Nuts and bolts. Yeah. And, Now, things have gotten more complex for the state government and all of a sudden what used to be their domain is increasing on our laps without necessarily the additional fiscal revenue raising ability. Yeah. I'll give you a, all of a sudden, towns are responsible for affordable looking people to be part of the affordable housing solution, right? Yeah. And, maybe there's some, new legislation that came out that may avail us to access some of the state education fund money that might otherwise go to the state to help make that happen. We'll see how that plays out. But really when all these expectations like storm water to clean up Lake Champlain and affordable housing and everything else was coming about, they passed Act 60 and the state took two thirds of the property tax. Fiscal capacity in Stowe, which is our main revenue source, right? So why all this, shift in, that, revenue source is going to this state? This is never ending stream of what people are looking to us to do. And part of that is the state trying to keep of it. Part of it is people feel they can access local government and part of. It is, people are coming from places like Vail, Colorado, and they do it in Vail, why aren't you doing it here? Yeah. And it's they got 350 employees. I got 74. Yeah. They've got this huge budget, and they're a home rule state where they can raise whatever revenue they want. They got a 4.5% sales tax. The state won't allow sto a 1%. Get the picture. Yeah. And a lot of it is trying to explain the, Our fiscal constraints and why we may not be, positioned to do, So I wanna say that's a big shift I've seen over the years. Yep. that, maybe I should have seen coming, but I don't know if I fully solids coming at us, US so fast. And I think part of that too is the el electronic media and social. Yep. network platforms, right? everything's instantaneous now. Used to be like, when I first got into business, we were still using carbon paper. I asked for a computer and like, why do you want one of those? And now it's boom. I want an answer right now. yeah. yeah. I always think about that, just even like the wreck path, right? the, you get a flood and all of a sudden that needs to be repaired. Yeah. It's like all these costs. Just keep creep up. Yeah. And I'm always amazed that the stuff even gets fixed. Yeah. it's a lot. It's, it's a lot mean, a lot of people don't realize it, but think about what the town's involved with other than services. we have a hundred miles of roads. We have over 500 cross culverts that go under those roads, that even what's under your driveway. we have, Lot of public buildings. Look at Ley, look at the arena, wastewater plant, highway garage, Helen Day Art Center, the ski museum. we have$10 million of equipment. when you think about all those departments to manage that equipment in that fleet. Yeah. Look at the land we own. Mm-hmm. Uh, Mayo Farm. Right? We're looking out here today. It's spectacular. And, Sterling, Forest, Katy Hill. Sunset Rock. the cemeteries, a lot of people don't realize the Parks department spent a third of their time maintaining the cemeteries. And all that's involved there, There's a lot there. A lot. It's a huge town. It's huge. major. Shout out. It's a public works. Yeah. I mean in general, but last summer in particular with the flooding, I live off Gold Brook Road and they just were unbelievable. Yeah. I gotta tell you around the clock. unfortunately I've involved a lot of floods, not just in Stowe. And one thing I've learned is get on it right and line up contractors and let the pieces fall in place. But you gotta get access to people's homes. And we have a fantastic, town engineer, public works director, and Harry Shepherd, very smart guy and dedicated team. Chris Jolly, you were mentioning earlier, people don't realize, I'd say at least a third of his time has been. Recovering our money from fema. And documenting all those works. And that's still ongoing. People are like, why aren't you moving on to the next project? we're still trying to recover our money. and we're still got projects we're doing like bridge replacement that take a time to turn'em around'cause all the contractors are tied up. So we're still actively engaged in that recovery and everyone's all Hey, why aren't you doing this project? Why aren't you doing that project lot? So I would say, Appreciate that. Shout out.'cause ly, if you asked me, one thing I'm proudest of in this community is the team of employees we've built this episode is sponsored by Edelweiss Mountain Deli located on the mountain Road. I know for me it is the perfect stopping point after day on the hill to grab my favorite Waitsfield sandwich and a cup of coffee, and for me grabbing my favorite Sweet Sensation bar. Whether you're looking for fresh Vermont pastries, farm to table prepared meals or local Vermont products to add your barbecue, make sure Edelweiss Mountain Deli is your next stop. When it comes to luxury real estate in Stowe Trust, Meg Kaufman of Land Vests, Christie's International Real Estate. Meg Kaufman knows the market inside and out. She's been a part of the Stowe community for over 20 years. Whether you're buying or selling, Meg Kaufman offers a concierge level of service. Taylor, just for you. Backed by the power of land vests and Christie's International. She brings proven success and local insight to every transaction, luxury real estate, local expertise. Meg Kaufman and Land Vests are the team you want on your side. Yeah. You as the voters get to decide your elected leaders. And we've had some great ones, and they're key and integral, but day to day, those are the folks in the trenches making it happen, putting employees, and they make it happen. For sure. They make it happen. so let's talk, what are some of the big projects or initiatives that are on your plate these days? Yeah. for terms of infrastructure, we have pfas in our water. It's not over the regulatory thresholds, but we're trying to get in front of that. We don't want it to trip that trigger.'cause once it does, we don't want to be, bringing in water buffaloes to stove, at the hotels or people's homes. And so we're looking at treatment or a new source to expand capacity and the quality of the drinking water. So that's a huge project. Wow. It could be 10 to$15 million by the time we're done. And, we're also, looking at, replacing the lower village pump station doesn't, not a sexy thing to most people, but it, pumps a lot of the sewage to the wastewater plant. It's a critical piece of infrastructure. that's another$3 million project. Mm-hmm. We're gonna try to do some storm water improvements. We're gonna try to get permits to improve Memorial Park. So there's, there's a lot on the horizon. and then, in terms of, public policy issues, the housing task Force is working on, what are we gonna do there? you got the planning commission working as a talent plan. As we talked about, people have brought up short term rentals and should there be short further regulations? Should there be a cap? So the select board's gonna have to weigh through all that. We gotta put forth a budget. there's no shortage of, opportunities to excel as my father used to say. Yeah. So like short term rentals idea, what's your role? What would be your role in that? Would it be just implementing whatever registry or, those kinds of. Yeah. So I always, have to schedule thing for the Slack board so they can debate and the chair between the chair and I, the process. And, my, my goal is I have to bring in legal counsel to talk about not just what people would like to do, but what's legally defensible and supportable. And, and do we have the authority to do it? That's where we all start from a public policy.'cause remember, we can't create things at a whole cloth at the local level. The power in Vermont is at the state legislature. And they have to authorize whatever we do, whether it's regulating short term rentals, or how we raise revenue, it's all controlled by Montpelier. we can do color within those margins. Yeah. but not outside of'em. And my job is to research and, with others and inform the board and then listen and help'em shape that. Put pen to paper to try to hit the mark. And then, once they say all in favor, if three of'em do. Then we gotta figure out how to implement it, which is not always that easy. Right now, all of a sudden we gotta work with a company to scan the internet and see who's doing what and try to get cooperation if they don't issue a ticket or try to otherwise solicit voluntary cooperation. Yep. Yeah. obviously as far as some of the initiatives you touched on the affordable housing Yeah. Piece. could you maybe just bring our listeners up to speed? I know there's, an affordable housing task force, but where is that all at right now? to no one's surprise, they identified that there is a shortage of affordable housing. Yeah. I think what they documented was, how acute is and how fast prices are. Escalating, That's not unique to sto. Yeah. but it's certainly amplified in sto, right? It's'cause of the demand. And so they're trying to figure out who they can partner with work, work with, and what tools we have to try to induce. there's, people can make a profit building housing in, right? and you could build, Tom Jackman, the former town planner, said you could build as many million dollar homes as you want. Somebody's gonna want to buy'em. Yeah. the challenge is getting the market to actually, build a, what we used to call the missing middle. workforce, affordable housing, so that's what they're trying to figure out. And, try to, introduce some of the tools they're talking about as inclusionary zoning. If you're gonna build x number of, million dollar homes. should you have to build an affordable unit, or donate to a fund that helps, a nonprofit, or a private developer, otherwise do that. so those are the type of things they're looking at. Is there a way to try to introduce some of that, into the housing, or use of conserved land? Is that, that's a tough one.'cause once it's conserved, right? And they don't necessarily allow housing. there's been some conversation on the Mayo Farm. Would the deed, allow that, there's a 25 year conservation easement that's coming due in 2028. Yeah. what so that public conversation's, another public conversation to people like the Mayo Farm as it is. Yeah. Do they see a rule for housing there? To some, if any degree, even if we could. So they're all, those are all the things we're gonna have to weigh through. Yeah. Different approaches. Yeah, for sure. And what about. Are there other ways to raise revenue? I think I read in the story Porters consideration of a new tax on, I don't know, development some, so yeah, I know other towns that have ski resorts have a ski lift tax. Yeah. not Vermont, but I apparently in other parts of the country. Yeah. And the select board feels people's pain. They feel the pressure of the property tax. Yeah. Nobody wants it to drive people out of their homes. And, they're trying to, we availed ourselves to the two options we had, with, rooms, meals and alcohol, and the sales tax at 1%. that's all we're allowed. That's all we're allowed other than administrative fees. And so they're thinking about, supporting general state legislation to say, Hey, we need more capacity. we get it. You have strains at the state level, but so don't we need you to loosen up. our capacity and, to, to support ourselves, right? and, to, achieve our community needs, wants and desires. and so there's two ways to do that. One is you support a general state law that allows almonds to probably to have that revenue raising capacity. maybe it's 2% on the sales tax instead of 1%. and another option is to amend our charter. We have a town charter. that's approved by the voters and it's, adopted by the legislature. It's law, and it, you can do things unique, through that charter, only pertaining to your municipality. So they're gonna potentially try both avenues to try to figure out something, take some pressure off the property tax and build some fiscal capacity. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Very interesting. So obviously as we look out the window, we're, surrounded by. Quite the natural beauty. Yes, you are. how do you feel the town manages environmental sustainability while also accommodating growth? I know you touched on it at the start, sustainable development, but it's gotta be a balance, Yeah, it is. How do you manage that? we live in a system that's highly dependent on the property taxes, dependent on growth, and some people said, if you're not growing, you're dying. Yeah. And and so there's a certain reality in a capitalist economy that you gotta have money to pay your bills. and the other side of it is, a lot of the recent people come here and stay here is because of our natural environment. The ability to get outdoors. I think, ow has done a good job over that, over the years, over 50% of the served. I would agree. and so there's a lot of great opportunities, to get outdoors. I think, we have a confined sewer core. we'd have to amend our Act two 50 permit in order to expand it. So there's some control on that there. Same time, I think there's some good redevelopment opportunities in sto. I think some of the buildings were thrown up in the seventies. No offense to anyone's without a lot of forethought, they just met a quick, like my house, it was built in 1970, and in the commercial district, right in particular, that there could be an opportunity to. better utilize some space. And I'm sure you'll see some redevelopment occurring there. And so I think it's like everything else, it's gotta be a balance. And, as resources become more constrained, that becomes more, more challenging. to figure out what that, when, we only control so much, government is not omnipotent. We can't tell everyone exactly what to do in all circumstances, I don't think people want us to. But sometimes it's tempting, right? To say, this is exactly what you can do with your property. We can only say, Hey, you got, you can develop it accordance with the zoning bylaws. Yeah. You gotta follow'em. But, I can't say, some people have said, we don't want any. More million dollar homes. We just want, affordable housing units. I can't keep someone from turning their condo into a million dollar condo or control the market. And so there's sometimes there's difficult conversations That I get that's what you desire, but I'm not the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. And, can't, necessarily deliver those things, but we can work towards those things. A lot of it is, are we open to affordable housing? Are we open to, those things that might enable a workforce to support our restaurants and our economy. So those are all those conversations we have to have. Yeah. I do agree though. I think Sto Hass done a great job with keeping that balance on the whole Yeah. there's just conserving and maintaining those natural lands, Yeah. It's, anytime I wanna get outside and go bike or hike, it's, we're very lucky. I'm just blown away sometimes, I just take a drive in the fall and I'm just like, wow. It's beautiful. You don't replicate this easy. One of my favorite trails is, heading from Worcester to Hunger. And just looking back at the Stove Valley, I'm like, are you kidding me? Yeah. I hiked, Worcester on Sunday. Nice. From Route 12. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, how lucky are we, right? I have to remind people that sometimes people come to my office, they're pretty fired up, I have to remind'em, Hey, you're like, just go look at the mountains. They're living in Vermont in general, and. You're in Stowe Life's, life could be a lot worse, right? Yeah, sure. once you get off Mountain Road. it's really pretty open. Yeah. and even Mountain Road isn't like Park City. Yeah. Where it's densely that's developed. That's what I was thinking was Park City, just the densely developed dense. Yeah. Yeah. I I just, and sometimes I, before I came here, I was like catching my breath and I was looking at the old yard cemetery behind town hall. And I think, what must those people think today? Yeah. If 200 years later or Right. Look at STO today. And a lot of it's the same. Yeah. Some of it's changed. But its bones are still there. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Now, another a hundred years we're gonna have skyscrapers. Yeah. I don't know about that. We will have a gondola though, from town. that's your dream, right? Exactly. From town up to the mountain, right? Yeah. A tunnel through smugglers. Not, I tell you, that was the Harry Shepherd Public Works Director. he. He would love to see when, I don't know if it'll ever happen in my lifetime, it is a little bit of a pause there. There's one way in and out of there in the summer. Yeah. And sometimes that gets concerning. Yeah, Top notch culvert, got blown out and we're times like, how do you get people in and out there? Absolutely. anyways. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What, what are some of the things you're most proud of in the 18 years? Yeah. I would say definitely my employees. I think we have one of the best, employee bases we've had since I, I've started. And, I would say, although I didn't have a lot to do with it, I was part of the public policy discussion and, but, is, I think, main Street, right? I think to me that just made a huge difference. I don't think people went out of their way. I remember reading an editorial from someone like, everyone just get outta my way. I'm up here to go skiing. I don't care about anything else. And I'm like, really? you could go anywhere and do that, but still special. it was a community before it was a ski resort. Yeah, Unlike some places out west there, there's a lot to see and experience here, including its community and its people and its culture and and I think, we invited people back into their main street and there's only one main street. That's the term. And when I see people out there circulating, I think it's terrific. And I see a vibrant downtown. there was even talk for a little bit when I was there about the town, vacating town hall. And I was like, we're my dead body. We needed more space, better park. And I'm like, if we vacate the downtown, how can we expect others to invest in it? Yeah. What's gonna happen to this proud building that was gifted to the town? Yep. I spent a lot of my career on downtowns and making sure they continue to play a central role in the community and I saw the community step up and do that and invest in their community center. That was big. That spoke well. Asto to me. And, the arena too, right? There was the community coming together. I get, it's not easy for everyone to come up with money, but there was a community investing itself. So that's what keeps me going when those kind of things come together. Yeah, those just a big, I always think Yeah. Town with. Yeah. it's beautiful Now the arena, the rec path, right? These are like big ideas that make stow what it is. Yeah. And it's like, how do we do more of those? Is it just, is it. It possible still in this, you tell me, we've had someone on before they, Mila on Mila. Yeah. Mila. She was saying you need people to get involved, not just government. Yeah. Yeah. You need people to drive some of these, end of the day, people have to vote Yes. Yeah. And have to be willing to commit their tax dollars and that's not getting any easier. Yeah. And nor is the regulatory environment to pull this stuff off. I'm not so sure you'd build that. Rec path today probably. But what a difference maker could you imagine still without the rec path. Oh, that rec is, it's a gem. Yeah. It really is a G on the town. Absolutely. It's like you couldn't build halbrook today. Yeah, Like that a month ago. I was like, how would they ever get this approved today? Yeah. Yeah. No. So I think it depends on the people. It all says in a democracy, right? Yeah. are And what do you want to see happen and are you willing to support it? At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. Yeah. Yeah. And I think on that note, could you also speak to just the importance of community engagement of residents, whether it's volunteering at any capacity or serving on boards and committees. Yeah, I think it's imperative. The select board needs to know what you think. Yeah. Civilly, right? Yeah, constructively. If you want your voice heard, that's the best way to do it. don't ever call me and say, I'm gonna sue you. I hear that all the time. It's it's lost its threat capacity. Tell me what's on your mind constructively. And that goes to the board too. Yeah. And, and I think, I think it's imperative, right? it's. I wanna say to people, everyone's tuning out now, and I get that. I tune out, when I'm out in the woods. Yeah. Bo hunting, there's a time for that. But people, we need communities to stay informed and engaged. It's, it's all about, public participation. And I don't wanna get preachy, you, but, that's where, We have a responsibility of democracy, we can't just expect it to deliver for us. We've gotta help deliver it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just looking at the org chart and you've got all these commissions, planning commission, conservation rec, these are all just people serving on these. Yeah, they are committees and I gotta believe there's openings probably on most of'em. Yeah, there are, there's four people on the conservation commission and they could take, I think it's seven. And they're gonna be centrally involved in the discussions about Mayo Farm. They gotta lead that discussion along with the select board. hey, there's an opportunity if you want to be, something's coming up front and center, right? Yeah. See, stone Mount Rescue, EMS Fire. Yeah. A lot of people don't even realize Stone Mountain Rescue is a part of the town, but they're in the public safety building. That was one of the projects, first big project we did. You wanna talk about making a difference? That was a good one. People say to me. How did the public safety get to the fore? And I know the community tried a lot of times, but it doesn't hurt to motivate the manager. I'm not the decision maker, but I remember Lynn Francis, she would volunteer her tail end off as an EMT and she'd cook the pretty good, feed for the troops. Nice. Every once in a while I made sure I got over there when that was occurring, and I just saw our ed dedication and effort and I'm like, yeah, you know what? They need a place that doesn't flood. or the, And they, you know what and what a difference maker that building made. Now we got all our public safety. It's a hub. It's a hub. Yep. And they're, they can't, they gotta work interdependently. They're all under the same roof. And you know how many municipalities would wish to have that? And, there it is. And we got a great, team that. we've had people come and go, but they've always worked together. Yep. together. And I think part of it is being under that roof together and a shout out to all of them as well. Absolutely. All those folks. Safe, you talk about service and sacrifice, right? Yeah, for sure. All of them time, right? Big time. I've had to do a lot of things, but I've never had to deal with a burning building and I, Yeah. Yeah. So you've got a budget of 18 town, 15 million, 18 millions. The operating budget, just for the general fund, we got about another 4 million in utilities. Not including the electric department, then there's capital on top of that, yeah. Yeah. It's, for Vermont, that's not a small operation. For sure. What, I'm just curious, if you got handed an extra$18 million, what would you do with it? that's a good one. I think, people would like relief from, Some of the property taxes, so Paul say Cashie shows up to every meeting and reminds us of that. I don't wanna, admit that possibility. But, at the same time, in a perfect world, if time and money was an object, I'd like to secure some safe drinking water for people. And I'd like to, I'd like to redo Memorial Park if I could. I think that's got a lot of potential as a community gathering place. Yeah. Really it does. Yeah. it's, some people did good to put out the facilities they did at the time, but. There's a lot more demand on'em. And they've, they don't want to go anything nowadays like the Gall Center. And it would be nice to get some facilities that, continue bringing the community together in that community center. Yeah. And so I don't know if we'll get there in my span of time I have left, but I'm gonna try hard. hopefully. Yeah. it's a great spot. Didn't the pickleball courts recently get? Yeah, so research, we tried to, I believe so. they, yeah. If you haven't been down, get down. I haven't. Yeah. they look terrific, but, they would like more and we just basically tried to do what we could with what we had. Yeah. that's all you can do, right? Yeah. It's not gonna, it's not gonna last 15 to 20 years. But we tried to bring some life until we could get to that project and Nice. And, or, build them from ground up. That's great. maybe pickleball that we need to have a pickleball match. Yeah. We'll we always talk about tennis, pickleball. Yeah. You gotta diversify, right? Yeah, exactly. That's right. Alright, Charles, for all our guests, we do rapid fire questions. Sure. you're on the hot seat. Okay. We'll give it a try. All right. Bigger logistical challenge. Martin Luther King snowstorm or leaf pee traffic. Leaf pee traffic. Okay. Yeah, they're all pretty good though. You guys come up with some good ones. I'll give you that. But, the State's allowed us to do a lot with Harlow Hill now to keep it cleared off. So it's, I think it's a little better than it used to be. It is better, yeah. All right. Back country skiing or hiking. That's tough. I gotta tell you, he's gonna say bow hunting. Yeah, that's probably true too. But I would definitely, I love off track skiing. I love just getting out there. Yeah. A hundred percent. And not, do you have a favorite spot? I live right off the Catamount Trail, so I'll hop on that, but, I got a camp up in Camel's Hump State Forest. Oh, sweet. Grandfathered up there. So I spent some time up there and. Nice. I've been known to ski from Elmore to Stowe and awesome. and, hey, it's where it takes you. That's the beauty of it. Nice. And it's always about discovery, right? That's the great part, right? It's like I, I got my favorites. I like to give back to like old friends, but at the same time, I just like that. I'm not confined to a trail. Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. No, I ski a lot and we'll get to the top of the mountain and my butts will be like, you know what should we do? what trail and all that. I just say, just follow the ski. Yeah, exactly. You to ski. it'll, wants to go not nothing against the lift lines and all that has to offer, but that has its moment and opportunity too. Yeah. Yeah. If everybody was in the back country, wouldn't be able to handle it. Absolutely. summer in STO or winter in sto. Whew. I know. Tough ones. Yeah. as long as there's good snow, I'm gonna have to say, Winter. Alright. Yeah. Alright. 4th of July parade or British Invasion Block Party. Whew. That's a tough one. They're both good. I'd like to go to the 4th of July parade more, but that's my mom's holiday. She's missed 4th of July and she's 87. She lives up in South Hero, Oh yeah. I don't get to go to the parade as much as I'd like, so we're gonna have to go with the British invasion for that one. Yeah. Don't want to piss her off, I'm sure. budget season or a construction season. Whew. I would like to think they both make progress, but sometimes it's hard to see that in the middle of a budget. it has to materialize and the construction's a materialization of that. So I have to say, I prefer construction season. All right. I get that Sunset Rock hike or pinnacle hike. Ooh, that, you know what? I go up the pinnacle more. So I gotta go there. But I say to'em, I keep telling myself, why don't you just go hike up Sunset Rock? I think you would do that. You gotta, you're right there. They gotta let me out of the office more. It was like, thinks I know everything going on in stone. I'm like, I don't, I wish I could get out the office more. Yeah. black Cap or Starbucks. You know what, I don't drink coffee. Oh God. he's going neutral. He's gonna Switzerland. Yeah. He's surrounded by'em. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How's that? That's a safe space. That's a good one. All right. All right. Blizzard cleanup or flood response? Blizzard cleanup. Definitely. Yeah. I'm telling you what, it's almost like you hear raindrops. You get PTSD nowadays, not to make light of what PTS all about. For those that have experienced trauma, but it's not too far removed. If you've been through a lot of floods and you realize what it's gonna take to put it back together again. Yeah. That you're still putting back together. Yeah. Select board meeting or community forum. You know what? I love the select board, I had, I'd go for the community forum, get a little more diversity of opinion. but there's certainly the role for the select board. You couldn't survive if everything was a annual meeting day. Right. You got function in between. so I guess I would say that. All right, I gotta ask this one. Putting in a gondola from town to the mountain. Or putting in a shared e-bike town wide system. Yeah, I know you're an e-bike guy. Yeah. Bikes that he is, he loves. I'm also a gondola from town to Yeah, I like that. That would've a wow factor, But then you'd have to figure out where you're gonna park everyone to get on the gondola. I think you're gonna see more and more e-bikes out there near the bid term, maybe the gondola long term. How's that? That was good. Turn downtown Stowe into a cobblestone pedestrian only street or connect stowe and smugglers, not ski area with a lift. Yeah. I don't know if you could do either one. It sounds like if you could. No, we're not even gonna wade into those waters. I did think it was cool the first time. I'm like, Hey, there's not too much of a degree of separation there, between SMUGs and the stove when you get down to it, but. Apparently there's some important real estate in between that humor about connecting those dots. I'd protest that anyway. Sorry. You can't do a cobblestone. I always thought STO should be a cobblestone pedestrian. It's like Nantucket. Yeah, like Church Street. like Church Street. Yeah. church humor. Never thought about'cause of the university system there. I don't know if the state would go along with a slight blocking off. Could you just do it just one day? Just rip up the street and just put in brick? we do that with the British invasion. At least in the evening hours for one room. Least some rerouting. it would just go through the back way. yeah. That's right. We could, that would be an interesting exercise. Yeah, All right. All right. Probably some people on the bypass route wouldn't be too, they wouldn't like that. Exactly. All. So let's go into, your vision, so you've, you've got a unique perspective as we ask all our guests. what's your hope for STO in the next five to 10 years? What's your hope for STO in the next five to 10 years? I just hope that people keep talking civilly coming together, figuring things out. I think that's at threat, and I think it's important for, again, people to see each other as their neighbors, right? I had a political science professor that once said, The difference between, Vermont and New York City is, in New York City, you give some of the birds, you never see'em again. Whatever, honk your horn. It's true. but in Vermont's a good point. that's your neighbor. You might have to help'em out. They might need your help. And, we're all on the boat together. So I guess if I had a hope, it may not be the big project. Yep. As much as, the community stays connected. They see the value in what everybody has to offer and they remember Layton's thing is there's a difference between, I'm right and believing I'm right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really good hope. And we've had others share that same one Yeah. On this podcast. And I think it's a good one. obviously you've been at the town 18 years. How do you feel STO has changed in that time? I think every town. Changes in 18 years. It's inevitable, anything that really sticks out to you. Yeah, I would say it's definitely busier the six seasons out of the year, right? Like you throw in mud in the stick season. it's certainly, and there's been a lot of good about that, but there's been some stress too, or having to adjust to that. I think, we certainly have a bigger trail network than we used to have. Sure do. I think some of our facilities and equipment fleet is better. but, I think the affordability issue Has stressed a lot of folks and so that's concerning. so that's, I think those are the ones that come to my mind. It's from an employer, it's not as easy to get labor or have as many people apply. so that's certainly been a change. but again, I think the fundamental bones are still there and we can't lose it. That, the community caring about itself. We have a lot of people that deeply care about sto, and, as long as we maintain that, we'll be all right. Thanks. That's what we're trying to do. Yep. For sure. Yeah. And you guys are doing a great job of connecting people. It's been. Terrific for me to hear different voices, to hear the people that we have in Stowe. It's fantastic. Great. to hear their story. That's awesome. We got a lot more coming. Good deal. All right. We do wrap up all of our episodes. One question now, I'm gonna broaden this'cause you don't live in Stowe? No, I live in Elmore. In Elmore, yeah. Okay. So great spot. If the greater Stowe Elmore area didn't exist, where would you live? I was thinking about that this weekend.'cause I'm, I listened to all your podcasts. You're like, I know it's coming. I better be ready. and I gotta be honest with you, I can have a follow up to this too way. Alright. That's fair. I would say South Hero, Nice. I spent a lot of time there as a kid. And I love the wood, as much as I love the woods, I love the water too. So if I couldn't be in the woods. I'd be on the water. It's a beautiful spot. All my follow up question. Yeah, sure. If you weren't the town manager for STO and STO didn't exist, where would you wanna be? Town manager. Nowhere else. This is where I'm hoping to sail off into the sunset. Yeah. He gives us a lot of neutral answers. That's I was touchy subjects. Yeah. yeah. that's a line of work I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. yep. All right. That was awesome. thank you so much, Charles. Thanks Charles. Yeah, keep smiling. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Hope you enjoyed that episode of the Octagon Podcast. Remember to like us on Instagram and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. See you next time.