Season 2: #4 Dave Bradbury: Growing Local Entrepreneurship Through The Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies

This week we explore the Vermont start up and entrepreneurial landscape with Dave Bradbury. Dave is the President of VCET — the Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies — where he’s spent years helping entrepreneurs turn their ideas into businesses right here in VT. What’s cool about David is that he’s not trying to make Vermont into the next Silicon Valley — he’s working to help Vermont become the best version of itself: a place where creativity, grit, and community fuel innovation. You can often find Dave on the slopes, in the backcountry or out on the mountain bike trails and he understands the unique quality of life an innovator can have right here in VT. 

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This episode of the Octagon Podcast is brought to you in part by Archery Close and Union Bank. Hey, this is Chris and Taste from Archery Clothes, your go-to boutique. For men's and women's fashion, we carry a curated selection of clothing, footwear, and gifts from unique and emerging brands. We're proud to sponsor the Octagon and even prouder to be local business owners here in Stowe. We love how the Octagon captures the history and characters of this incredible town. After coming off the slopes or the trails, stop by archery close. Located at 1650 Mountain Road in Stowe. Open seven days a week, or always open online@archeryclose.com. Since 1891, union Bank has made banking a little bit easier and more convenient for you by investing in the success of its local community. Your community headquartered in Mooresville Union Bank has 18 branches and three loan centers throughout Northern Vermont and New Hampshire. Union Bank is a proud supporter of the Octagon Podcast, as well as many fantastic community oriented endeavors such as the STO Trails Partnership, the Vermont Ski and Snowboard Museum, and the STO Land Trust to name a few of the over 200 nonprofits they work with. To learn more, go to ub local.com. Welcome listeners to the Octagon Podcast, where we explore the stories, people, and places that make Stover Vermont so legendary. I'm your host, Ted Thorndyke, joined by my co-host Mike Carey. We are excited to introduce our guest today, Dave Bradbury. Dave is the president of the Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies, where he spent years helping entrepreneurs turn their ideas into businesses right here in Vermont. What's cool about David is that he's not trying to make Vermont into the next Silicon Valley. He's working to help Vermont become the best version of itself. A place where creativity, grit, and community fuel innovation. You can often find Dave on the slopes in the back country or out on the mountain bike trails, and he understands the unique quality of life and innovator can have right here in Vermont. Welcome Dave. Great to be here. Lot to live up to. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Obituary sounded awesome. And you are the first guest who has required us to have beer during the episode. it is after five and Oh yeah. No, I love it. Cheers up my, the cheers. Me and Dave are gonna cheers here. yeah. It Cheers. Cheers. After full workday. Ready to have a beer. Nothing wrong with that. alright Dave, we'll just jump right in. could you maybe just tell us what path led you to becoming the president of V Set and what drew you to the world of startups in venture support in Vermont? I think it was, in 2007 I was, hanging out on the porch, looking at the Worcester one afternoon and the phone rang and, they said, Hey, pick up the phone, if you see a 2 0 2 area code. I'm like, okay. And. They were like, we want you to stop snowboarding so much and get back to work. And Senator Lahey called and said, Hey, we started this thing at UVM an incubator. It's got some potential, it's not finding in its way. stop snowboarding so much and get back to work. Put your wife Emily on the phone. And they chatted for, 15 minutes talking about the peeps and the stuff. And, she hung up the phone. She goes, what was that about? And I said, I don't know, but I think I have a job. So it really transitioned from maybe 10 years of being a consultant working with startups and angel investing to China, work with this amazing set of people and institutions, UVM and, to try to build this incubation entrepreneurial ecosystem really as higher education. Economic development, entrepreneurship, were just starting to intersect. So that's what got me into the business. It was probably ego and I could fix that or what are our kids gonna do and for employment down the line. Yeah. And it's been a lot of fun. So when you got that phone call, were you working at the time? It sounded like you were snowboarding, but didn't know what your status was. I was a consultant and so got it was, I was working very little and living very large. It was a great life, but it's been an insane, commitment and joy to be able to do what I've been doing. Awesome. Very cool. Yeah. So for listeners who may not know, tell us about v Set, the mission. What are the goals? How do you measure success? Yeah, so Vsat this is our 20th year of being open for Vermonters and we're a nonprofit that tries to come up with actionable advantages for people to start scale and sustain their businesses. And that's either through the people they need to know. The places and programs that provide resources or insights or the protein sources, Grants or venture capital to help us start and fuel their business. We we meet one-on-one with about 300 startups and serial entrepreneurs a year. Have portfolio of just about 30 companies where we've invested in. Okay. And do all sorts of fun stuff and coworking and all the rest. So there has to be a Vermont Connection founder or company, or ish, I'd say mostly of Vermont,'cause we work with a number of colleges. Middlebury Champlain, UVM. Norwich. And, you get to know students or faculty and sometimes they leave. Got it. And we still help them. Yeah. And we play the long game.'cause a lot of'em come back. Or maybe they go to become a senior exec in a company in Boston and we have an up and comer that might need a relationship or a customer. We can put those folks together. Again, a little bit more holistically. Yeah. But mostly in Vermont. Yeah. And then success, like when you look at year to year, is it job creation? Is it, how do you measure You're doing a good job? Yeah. I think the companies are doing, they do all the work, right? And, we measure really, outputs rather than inputs. Right? And when we survey our companies, every year we look at things like how much capital came in. that's an input, right? That leads to outputs, and then it's like revenue. So we just got our new numbers. I'm gonna be off by a couple million bucks, but over the lifetime, the companies in our portfolio have raised over$600 million in capital. Nice. Including about$9 million from Visa's direct revolving investments. So huge leverage. And then the revenues now are about$780 million cumulatively over time. Wow. We're using our customers money more Yeah. Now than our investor money. Which is a really exciting inflection point that happened about four years ago. yeah. and jobs, a hundred, I dunno, probably six, 800 jobs have been supported. That's great for the activities both here in Vermont and elsewhere.'cause companies are here and there, right? Yep. So I know before, before V set you worked in finance, you did some consulting. how do you feel those experiences and skillset have transferred over into what you've been doing? Yeah. I came to work professionally in Vermont and I ended up in the Agency of Commerce In Montpelier. And I wanted to work at a ski. I, when I left working in finance in Boston, I was like, what's the toughest thing to do? I was like, oh, A CFO at a ski resort. What a miserable business to try to run. Estate never makes money, whether it's a fucking disaster. So I, sign me up. I found my way to the Secretary of Commerce up here, Frank McDougal, and I said, Hey, I wanna work in one of these. He's you're insane, Dave. You're a young guy with potential, He said, come work for me. So I got to work in Montpelier when Howard Dean became governor. Okay. And as deputy commissioner ultimately of economic development. So you get to go up a lot of these dirt roads. Yeah. And usually there's one of, one of three things, A big mean dog, a dead end stone wall, or really cool entrepreneur, She might be a researcher or he might be making whatever whiskey or products. But I always thought that was a neat adventure, and that's what hooked me on. Cool. The potential of Vermont, the characters in Vermont, and the potential and opportunity to just see new things created in that fearlessness and grit and commitment. So that's what I got hooked on. Yeah, it's a unique state for sure. Yeah, And yeah. That's cool. It's quirky. That's, I love it. That's quirky. Yeah. it's not the first place. you think of Silicon Valley, you think of these other hubs a lot of the time, but Vermont does have a very entrepreneurial bench. Like self-starter and coming up with new products. it's amazing to me. Food products, just across the board. How many things come out of Vermont? Yeah. it comes from being agrarian, rural, distant to big markets. what choice did you have? Yeah. That's true. You had to make stuff or figure out ways to repurpose broken farm equipment into something else. And I think that spirit of we can do it, let's be creative, which turns into like capital efficiency. It turns into bootstrap businesses, it turns into businesses that really care about their community. So they might not be seeking the highest dollar when they go to sell, but it's more of oh, alright, if you're gonna buy me, what's your commitment to staying here in this town? Yeah. And you don't get that everywhere. And I love that about that. And, it's been really neat to see, again, world class technologies start here, scale here, sustain, because by definition, unless you're one, two, or three in this particular sector, you're just not gonna be competitive. When you're in a small place far away. Yep. I know s Skia has become pretty big. S skia. Yeah. SDA hat. Oh, COR is awesome. Yeah. And that, have you worked with them? not really. Yeah. I'm just such a fan. Yeah. Great product. Oh, great product. Her story's great. And I think that good vision. Yeah. And the origin of how they did it, She solved her own problem and need and yeah. Her teammates wanted some hats or whatever it was, and it just went on and on. And I think I give, Corinne just so many others, she makes herself available to talk with students, to talk with others that are also trying to scale their businesses and pay it. Pay it back. Pay it forward. Yeah. So That's cool. Really inspirational. Yeah. during your time, are there any unique stories or, companies that, started right here in Vermont and then really just grew into something huge? something huge over Vermont. Huge. Yeah. Vermont huge. Yeah. So we've we've now met with 4,077 people over the last 18 years. Wow. And that's a number that just came out. So that's a lot of stories. Yeah. A lot of movies, some of them twice, like they sell and come back, but, in terms of the memories, I remember two pitches, like succinctly. And one was Chad Brodsky, who was, I think he was a junior at UVM who walked in. He's loneliness is a problem and here's how I'm gonna solve it. I was like, fuck, you got my attention kid. This was great. And it was an app, and it's called Shout Out and all this thing. Okay. And so that was like really memorable to me. And then another was, Leno Ro walked in, she'd been a researcher at UVM. She's chemo is a killer. We gotta do better. Here's how we're gonna do it. And, in terms of therapeutics and treatments for cancer treatments, and again, those people that showed up who were undeniable, they were driven, they weren't jerks. They said, we're gonna do this. And number two, they had some specific insight Yeah. Of how, and they were in markets or sectors that were just huge and growing, right? Loneliness, Being sick and eating treatment. So that I think to me, has been fun, in terms of companies we work with specifically. I don't know, Rob Forger's in town Next Capital was a good one. Yeah. that, he built that And merged it. And we were, I think, the first outside investor in that company. And Goldman Sachs bought that one a few years ago. So that was quiet and fun. in Waterbury alone, we have five companies between Core Power Nomad, transportable Power, GPMS, which is a hums healthy monitoring stuff for helicopters and really important things that been Verde Technologies, which is in Waterbury Center now that does, thin film, solar modules using Pite. And then, that, that was four and the fifth one's down in Montpelier, a he tech company. So yeah. they're all there. And I think we focus on working with folks at the ideation stage, or I think I wanna be an entrepreneur. what are the trade offs? So I tell folks, we're really great from the farm team until you get to second base. Yeah. And once the company's at second base, they're like, wow, what's our tax strategy? And like, how do we get bank loans? And I'm like, dear God, I'm so bored now. let's go back to the farm team and Right. I was thinking, which is natural'cause I'm not that, that experienced and other people are. So I was thinking as you were saying, it's man, every day you go to the office is just something new and fresh and different. And that's gotta be just super exciting and stimulating. it's terrifying hearing all these new ideas and Yeah. being the dumbest one in the room every day is like the rocket scientist does walk in the door. Yeah. His name was Ryan McDevitt. It was green scale technologies. It's Hey, I'm thinking of making this, propulsion system for cube satellites that are gonna be big. We're gonna use this inert material. And I'm like, whoa, okay. Let me have my coffee. Yeah, let's sit down. And that's on benchmark, space, up in Burlington. yeah. Very cool. it's incredibly hard to go from idea to a company though, right? so you're helping them take this idea, get it started, maybe get the first customer, second customer some payment, but then you're okay, now go get venture capital. Go get other things to help you grow from that point. Is that sort of the, I think on average it's, it's different for everybody. And we have to have humility in knowing that the entrepreneurs and the teams, they're the ones taking the big risks. Yeah. And looking for it. And I think, early on, once you have that idea, it's really time to revenues. Time to team, time to capital, and then ultimately time to exit or whatever your success is. Yeah. And we really work through that. this people places protein, right? Yeah. sources. And on the people side, like I've always viewed Vermont as a small place where there's, we know each other or our visitors on the chairlift we get to chat with, and that's our secret weapon, right? It's a talent cloud. It's like virtually free, infinitely scalable. You just have to try to curate it lightly and smartly. back to the example of the rocket scientist. I'm like, I don't know anything about Yeah. This, and I just happened to be mountain biking one day with a fellow who. Jamie Goldstein and he's oh, my buddy started one Web. Why don't we go talk with him, which is a satellite company. And then it goes from there. Land comes out of the woods like, Hey, my friend's at LRE Space. that's typically Andy, sort of thing. and then I ran an Evan level who was on two space companies. So that's how we got it. Help the entrepreneur think about things early, some connect some connecting points. Yeah. And I think that, again, in a small place, you're not gonna out raise on capital or out raise on big corporations in our area to take early risk. You're really, you're accessing networks and in ways that are of high trust. They're authentic, empathetic. So what do you do with someone that comes to you and you're like, this idea sucks. This idea is going nowhere. But I seriously though, right? what's the dream? What's idea? Mike? What's the idea? No, it's not mine. No, I have lots of those ideas, but nothing right now. I'd like to hear Mike in that room. Mike. Mike would just, oh, I have lots of ideas. You would just, but I talk myself out of them. Yeah. Yeah. how do you, because it's maybe their dream and you're like, oh, this is never gonna work. Yeah. I think over time, again, you try to understand where people are coming from, right? And everybody's different. And I think over time, our team is, unless we give them honest feedback, and we then we're probably don't deserve to exist, right? Yeah. And so it's really a question of, all right, why do you think this is a good idea? Or how did you get there? Or have you compared it? So a little bit of questions and sometimes folks can get led to next steps. We have a bunch of tools and a bunch of. other resources were like, Hey, go through the business model canvas, or maybe do a SWOT analysis, or let's go talk to people that are in that Adjacent sector, Because they'll ask real questions. And I think for me, I'm like, I was council, particularly our younger team members, I'm like, if we talk somebody outta losing their house, right? For betting the ranch on a, on an idea, that's really not an opportunity then, we gotta feel good about that, even if it's tough or awkward. And what has been very validating to the organization over time is people that we've had tough conversations with, have come back years later and said, Hey, thanks. This is where I pivoted or what I'm doing. or better yet, they've come back a handful of times and said, you were so wrong. We did it. you bastard and we're thrilled. Yeah. Yes. proof is wrong. Yeah. it's not easy. Again, we, and I think the, one of the first things we do suggest is if you get an idea, make sure it's an opportunity, right? Yeah. And do that by going out and just talk with people. do surveys or, don't just talk to your best friends or your family and have these sort of, distance sort of inquiries and you do get feedback. Yeah. Yeah. I keep thinking of Shark Tank, somebody walking at Right, exactly. They're mean though. They are. I know they're trying to be you on TV and be me, but you must get some Crazy ideas that you must be some comedy somewhat. Yeah. that's a yes. Yeah. you don't have to share, but, no, there was one guy with, in the, I don't came out of the, these inventor types that are just, you don't know if it's magic or mania. You just don't know. And it was just flying salsa kind of spaceship runs on water and it, he'd built it with stainless steel or parts in his garage, in his barn. And, but there were like six Ginsu knives spinning. Like literally couldn't get into this thing and Sounds like one of Mikes said. and we listened and, it didn't really go anywhere and, but you jump ahead today and it looks like one of the Evie talls in a way Same kind of concept, but it just evolved, Yeah. yeah. Yeah. pretty wild. nice. Dave, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges facing entrepreneurs in Vermont today? Yeah, I think, it, it used to be, I didn't know where to go to get help, But there's enough, there's, so many entrepreneurial resources to, to access for free or places to work. so like basic infrastructure, like the isolation of being an entrepreneur is probably the biggest barrier. And I think if you get these smart, motivated people together, even if they're, still forming the clay in a way of their idea, they benefit, the challenges are the speed at which products are expected to go to market, right? How do I, build this and get it out? capital for some is still really tough to get, whether it's a small little loan or a hundred thousand dollars venture check. but that's not uniquely Vermont really. That's everywhere. And. I think too, it's the scale sometimes of what people are thinking. if you're trying to get a bank loan, or again, big dollar venture bets, it's gotta be earth changing, right? and go for a home run. And like AI and all the expectations of growth and hype there are so distorting what, a year ago would've been a great business. oh, you're gonna double revenues for the next two years. now they're getting a yawn. and, but for us and others that, that invest locally is creating really great opportunities To support folks that want to build local employment, sustain it, have very profitable industry leading companies. some trade offs there. Yeah. And I think, scaling companies, Finding housing for folks, the same headlines things Yeah. Is, is there, but there's not a whole lot that's. Uniquely Vermont, I think at this point. Yeah. A lot of them are common problems. Yeah. And the first thing you talked about that's mean like manufacturing, getting, just less manufacturing opportunities locally in Vermont. Being a rural state. Yeah. it's still depends what product, I guess what product and things are changing, right? Like it, it used to be, you had to have a hundred people to have a pharmaceutical startup. But now the whole supply chain is, you can out outsource, you do with 18 people. Yeah. Actually 18 people could assemble in Vermont. Yeah. Versus hundreds of specialized personnel. So it does open up some opportunities. We have a fantastic board and these, couple hundred advisor types that we ask for these mentor moments, pay it forward, pay it back. Yeah. That's cool. And it's really neat to see Vermonters rise to the occasion to help without expectation of payback or anything other than, I, I've always wondered whether we have a collective fear of the future or a collective optimism in the future, but I don't care'cause they're both motivated. We get the meeting. Yep. Awesome. Are there, I'm curious, are there any sectors or market areas that you're thinking about? you're oh, these are the three or four things. obviously ai, everybody's thinking about, but there other ones that you think are interesting?'cause I feel environmental stuff is probably, I dunno if it's not good now with all the regulations kinda getting stripped away. Like what are some of the areas? Yeah. So I joined Visa 18 years ago, and we had to make a decision about who we serve, right? Find our lane. And we knew it was generally technology enabled companies. so we start with what we don't want to do, right? We don't do restaurants, retail or real estate. And then over time, I'm not gonna do algae biofuels, I won't do that. So that's just me quirky. So that really opened up the world to like the what, right? And then we were like, can we really predict that in a reasonable way? And I don't know, mRNA, I'd never heard of it 18 years ago, right? 3D printing wasn't around. what we've come to Mike is to look for undeniable people with a specific insight in a, a growing or an uplifting market. And then we learn the why, what they're doing. So it was less about the widget or the idea than it was to drive the people or the insight as to why now. And then we go through this. Process whether we're investing or try to help them think it through of team tech timing terms. So the team, why you the tech, why this? Yeah. The timing is like why now? Is there like demographic, regulatory, cultural shifts? And then, and then the terms really is this more open question of what benefit, right? Is it helping college kids get into the workforce? Is it leveraging a natural resource? that's our context. today we're seeing, a lot of things, with around, industrial automation. robotics companies. certainly energy is taking it on the chin, it's inevitable we're gonna need batteries. And, it's gonna be Yeah. Batteries that are made by our companies and Waterbury and elsewhere. the med tech and health tech stuff is really. It'll have a lot of AI and automation involved in it, but it's really gonna come down is can I trust this software to care for the people that work in the hospitals? And also for the patients and the payers. and Vermont has some strengths there because of companies like IDX paved the way for health tech. he had marketing tech dealer.com responded a bunch and And, a few others. So yeah. It's a, it's not a deep, pool per vertical. but more generally across, they really share traits around a specific insight with some undeniable people That, that want it, know it, and are gonna just bust their asses, and make it happen. And I think it's really cool to go to work and see them walk in. Nice. Yeah. Good questions. I like the, like, why now? why is this a good time? Yeah. Taking that into account instead of just this low always be good idea, but how does it factor into, Timing right now with what's going on around the world. yeah. Because like I think we, we have a lot of, very creative people in Vermont. Or maybe we just have a lot of time staring at the mountains in the backyard. We have big picture thinking without traffic and all the distractions, but the market may not be ready to say yes. Yeah. And then it becomes, it may be the best idea in the world, but Right. it, it was that example earlier that the inventor with the Ginsu bladed, saucer in his barn, and, guess what? Yeah. That could be beta or Joby or Archer, today and I think entrepreneurship is about timing. When to get in and when to get out and, yeah. Boy, for sure. I wish we had the magic answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. you're helping'em figure it out. Yeah. or even, how do you keep those entrepreneurs? I gotta imagine there's a bunch that have come out and maybe they're getting their PhD or somewhere at University of Vermont or Middlebury. Why wouldn't they go to Boston or San Francisco? to me. How do you, how do they stay here? Is it because the quality of life? Because if I was an entrepreneur and I was trying to go for it, you might move to one of those cities. And I always feel it in Vermont, we lose people when they're like 20 to 30, 35, and then they want to come back. How do we keep those people here? Or are they staying here? Maybe I'm missing it. Yeah, I, everybody has a theory. I've seen, it's changed, my perspective changed over the years. I think, 20 years ago, economic development was, here or there. It was binary, right? The computer chips are in Essex. You had to be there in Rach. now the conjunctions and Yeah. Teams are here and there. And so we're seeing even some of our college, entrepreneurs, like they start companies now with their high school pals. And I'm like, where's your team? oh, one's in California, one's in Florida, one's in, Middlebury. Yeah, it's less of an issue. but it's tougher for people to see companies sometimes if they're so distributed. Yeah. So I think there's a lot more going on than maybe we realize. and part of it, my two boys right? They both wanted to go to school outta state to college. And one came back. Which is amazing. And the other, but I maybe will, right? Yeah. maybe Will, will, will. I think the losing, I always think from a public policy perspective and certainly, the entrepreneurial support organizations like Vsat, have we worked hard enough to earn Your first choice, right? Have we made it easy? Have we made it easy for you to land and find a house or, get a registration for your car? Like, all those, like life friction points. I'm not sure we're particularly good at, but we could be a little bit better. but I'm not worried about people that are coming and going. It's part of the life cycle Yeah. Of things. Yeah. I think back out of the 4,000 or so that I mentioned that we've worked with, there's only a handful that really left because at that moment in time, they needed 20, cybersecurity salespeople. We couldn't have grown those in four years up here, but they could snap their fingers and get that in Salt Boston. Yeah. So they had here and there. Or their client were, high-end architectural firms, which were concentrated in the section of New York City. Great. With a couple flights a day, you gotta be there. And and I also find too that one of the neat perspectives we've had having done this so long, or being institutionally, ongoing at Vsat, is people come back, they leave for a couple years and go, podcasts like yours, the one we do start here. Are listened to all over the world. Yeah.'cause people wanna stay in touch with home or maybe where they went to college so that when they're ready to come back, maybe they wanna have a family or maybe someone's going to medical school and there's a trailing, spouse that's looking for work. And I think that's the Yep. That's the game. it's a little bit more dispersed and tougher to curate than Than we've got 400 people That want this one and endless pipeline. That is a good point. Majestic Mount Mansfield embodies the spirit of Stowe heritage. And we're proud to present the Octagon Podcast, a true reflection of our amazing community. Stowe Living is honored to sponsor this podcast. We're helping you live your best life daily with stunning furniture, unique design, kitchenwares, thoughtful gifts sourced from around the world. Thank you Stowe for your continued support of Stowe Living and the Octagon Podcast. When it comes to luxury real estate in Stowe Trust, Meg Kaufman of Land Vests, Christie's International Real Estate. Meg Kaufman knows the market inside and out. She's been a part of the Stowe community for over 20 years. Whether you're buying or selling, Meg Kaufman offers a concierge level of service. Taylor, just for you. Backed by the power of land vests and Christie's International. She brings proven success and local insight to every transaction, luxury real estate, local expertise. Meg Kaufman and Land Vests are the team you want on your side. how would you say you've seen the startup ecosystem change over the last decade? We'll use that timeframe. Yeah. I think it's exciting, right? I think, there used to be one venture capital firm. Now there's, 6, 5, 6 that are doing some family offices. you have the opportunity to make your case to more people, more places, writing checks that, that also bring some other benefits. you've got a network of spaces. It might be a makerspace, it could be a, do North Coworking in Linden or Brick and Springfield or V Set or Car Birdhouse or Hula. hula is pretty cool. You can find your, you can find your place. yeah, Hulu's been a great addiction. That's a good spot. Yeah. Pretty cool. and we've got our downtown coworking space as well, on Main Street. That also is cool. Little speakeasy vibe. Nice. and to me that, that is very different. And then the other things that have changed is the, at least on a technology side, it's gotten a little why people have gotten more expensive. the tools you can access to start and launch or test a company have decreased. So it's a little bit cheaper to get through that first kind of proving phase for most things. Hardware's different, obviously. Yeah. That's when you can prove to yourself, this is an opportunity. I should go for it. Take a loan, bet the ranch, go find partners. I don't know. I'm actually really encouraged. yeah. No, it seems like opportunity has grown, Yeah. And the COVID and remote working and that shift really super opens, opened it up and it's okay. Like you said, to have a person here and there and all over versus everyone's here. Yeah. I don't know that the jury's proven that it's actually more successful, but it's happening and it's working. and what that did is that increased the talent pool of people in Vermont. Yeah. At, not at all levels of career. And I think that's the most exciting part of when, I can rationalize, spend a Tuesday morning on the chairlift to see who's there with me. Yeah. you just meet people and they have an interest in Vermont. We can tie'em together. Yeah. Awesome. So what, what advice would you give to. An aspiring entrepreneur, where would they get started? Would they come to Visa? Would they come? Is there, do you do open houses? What's, I would sell'em just an idea saying, how do I even just explore this? Yeah. we've worked really hard to I think our website is come as you are with what you got. We don't care. We don't wanna pitch. Let's just hear it'cause let's talk.'cause when the bar is so high, it really discourages. Yeah. First time entrepreneurs, it discourages, people that don't look like me or women were a little bit, hesitant. Come in until they had it perfect. working with you know what, let's just come in, let's just do this. Or a faculty member that you know, didn't, so I think that was, that is one. And yeah. you reach out for help. it's not always us, right? It might be a retail business. So we would go to the SBD seat, small business development centers. They have great counseling center for women in entrepreneurship. most of the colleges and universities now have entrepreneurial programs, clubs, and they're looking for projects. So I think you can also demystify the jargon, the questions by maybe going to programs that are now out. So we're a sponsor of this hardware meetup series, right? We've done, I think seven of'em, seven or eight of them coming up. And so if you want to geek out in that go, there's a hundred people that show up and see it. There's one for creatives called Frank. Which goes on, there's robotics clubs, there's, our female founders series we do at Hotel Vermont where we, just talk about how people have started businesses. That's now in its 10th year. we hire a media factory to come tape it and it gets distributed in the public access channels, and sometimes it goes to seven states. So we're showing Vermont, we're trying to just build, can do. Yes. ask for help. So those are just some examples. Yep. But cool. What do you find most rewarding about the work? Yeah. I usually get asked what's your best exit? Which is so just bullshitty. Yeah. And I'm like, I go right to our people. I say Scott Bailey, Nila, Johan, Sam Roach, Gerber, like all these folks that. V sets had 85 fellows and interns through the years. we've had less than a dozen employees through the years. So they're the ones that have gone on to create change at Mass Challenge. They would build that up, or they, do social impact, investing and programs around the country. So I think of the folks,'cause at the end of the day, what's the stock certificate mean? it's those relationships. It's a hundred percent Yeah. That, when you need a doctor or you need a mechanic or you're wanting a, your child to talk with someone about an internship. I think those connections make us human, they make us care and that's what makes Vermont different from the rest. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. I'm curious, like when you look at Stowe, do you think Stowe ever has the potential to be a startup place, a place where people could. I've always thought it could be, but it's just not. I think people come here to not work that was my story. For dead. And yeah, we do get a lot of people that, have careers and they've done well and they, I'll go live in my vacation house full time. Yeah. And, the pattern is they cut hay for two seasons. Yeah. At the end of the second season of, tending to the acreage. They get bored. Yeah. And then they reach out and that's where we've, that's where we fish for talent to as advisors or board members and whatnot. yeah. I mean we've had some, and still proper, there's been some businesses over the years that, the OPIA and Springer Miller, right? Yeah. Are the ones on Main Street. Yeah. But probably not. I think it's a balance. Is that a challenge for you? I'm curious'cause you're going to, how often do you go into Burlington to the office? Is it. Couple days a week? No, I go most days. Most days. Yeah. I think, I took the job and I'm like, listen, there's a snow exception, right? Yeah. Always right. It, the back railing's gonna this much, I'm gonna be there at 10. It's not safe for me to drive to work, but it's safe for me to drive to the mountain, be there 10 o'clock. Yeah. So I wish I could use that more. it's like the schools, right? The schools would cancel classes, right? And you're like, wait, it's not safe to drive to school, but all the kids drive to the mountain with their parents. it's probably only two days a year versus, 20. But, I think, yeah, I go in most days again, we operate a coworking accelerator hub too. So we've got, anywhere between 150, 200 people a year that work out of our very cool space. It's very cool. I've been there. Really? I gotta check it out. Let's try it. Yeah. Yeah. I've been there. We should, we could do a recording there. Yeah. You, it's totally you. Our studio. Cool. If you want. Yeah. Yeah. your setup's pretty awesome. Yeah. And I think, I like that. maybe it's just'cause I'm 59 years old, generational, but I think, you like being in the office and Yeah, I do. I like the people and we architected our community for a certain size. Like we, we don't, we didn't want more than 80 people there at any one time. Yeah, We don't do events of over a hundred'cause people just stop talking. Yeah. like the sociology of something just breaks down. So we want high touch, high engagement so that, Hey, I'm thinking of this. there's an expert right there that does that. Let me ask them a question so I don't have to go hire somebody or waste my time. And I think those little collisions. Were really, important when we set it up. Actually, Tanya Kratt from town. Tanya Armstrong. Yeah. Like she, she did the design work for us. We, I, we came runner up in some global competition. Yeah. Wow. But it was all about these like smart little Yeah. Interactions. Yeah. I want an office, but it's, is it a coffee shop or is it a, a tech Google plex vibe. And, trying to architect and curate that over time has been a challenge. Yeah. But, I think driving into Burlington though, that was it, 35 minutes, 40 minutes is awesome. Like I, it's a beautiful drive. it, and now that cell phone works everywhere with that damn dip in Waterbird. what does that look about? I know, right? Like you need like a GoFundMe program or something. There's gotta be like That's true. You can't make a work call like in that stretch. no. And, but I think it's a great time. Time where is, put that spot there, right by the apple, the, the wood carving, like pa past that, right? yeah. that one. And then right at, right where the entry is to the park at the reservoir. I lose my signal. I'm on at and t maybe you guys. Yeah, I'm on Verizon. It loses. Does it work for you and Verizon? I think I've been all right in those spots. It's gotten better. Yeah. It has gotten better. But there's still some sketchy spots. yeah. And I think it's a good, it's a good way. I think actually not having a commute really has some impact on how we work and our effect like. Gearing up and gearing. Yeah. Yeah. Absolute. Versus just work the whole time. put your slippers on, roll out of bed and you're on. so Yeah. But on the topic of the Stow Market, I know Day House, that's pretty, that's been cool. Love Day House. Oh my gosh. It's been a cool, really cool. Oh yeah, cool. New our team going on Loves, loves what Hannah's built down there. Yep. That's cool. And I love hanging out there, maybe once a month for a few hours. Yep. And I was like, oh, it's about time. I know. Like we need it. And the space are really tough to run and to maintain. Because for sure, the infrastructure costs a lot and people and heating costs. Yeah. and most people have a place to work at home, so you know, you have to choose to go and I love it. It is it's like a community resource here. And that's another example of spaces and places where people can gather. today that wasn't there a decade ago. Yeah. the one in Waterbury, I'm blanking on with the record store one, that they've just launched too. Oh. So yeah, you can buy albums and play records and they've got some coworking spaces. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which is really neat. And I think again, without our humanity, like we're just a bunch of droids. So I think regardless of what you do, just being with other people is healthy for some part of your week. Yep. So I understand your son works at beta. Yeah, my son Case. Yeah. Yeah. So how's he just settling into early career life in Vermont? I can't believe I have a son that graduated college. Yes. I know. It's unbelievable. I have too now. Yeah. It's unbelievable. but, yeah, case, a mechanical engineering degree from Michigan and went to STO High School. Yep. And, Roger Murphy, teacher at STO started this internship program in high school and case. ended up getting a beta internship in high school. Oh wow. And had That's great. Worked there two years, was four years during college and yeah, he loves it. it's young, it's exciting. And and I get to mountain bike with my kid and I never thought was like's Did he come here right after Michigan or did he, was he somewhere else in between? Yeah, he just traveled with the boys for a bit and raised hell and then showed up six hours before he was supposed to report to work kind of thing. So he felt the pull to come back to Vermont? Yeah. it was funny. Essentially right after college, I won't speak for him'cause he is an adult now too. But what my observation is that, he wasn't ready to come back to Vermont. And I think that's to Mike, to your early question about, young folks, it's great, but it's the dating pool's small. Or, the same club or the band, the life and experience. And I think he needed to go away for a bit in order to return. Yeah. So I think that's where the long game or the intermediate game is how do you keep connections through the colleges or through podcasts or remind them of home So that when they're ready, they've got a lot more connections, made. And for him it was the opportunity, Kyle and Katie Clark are creating, at beta that, how could you say no to that opportunity and to be there to try to build something that no one's really built before. I think that's really cool. Absolutely. That's great. And you got a mountain bike buddy, sounds Yeah. In a winter ski buddy, can you keep up or? Yeah. he's a great snowboarder, just Oh yeah. You're probably just happy he wants to go with you. Yeah, totally. He doesn't really, it's usually because he wants me to pay for parking. Exactly. Buy him one after which, at this point I take it. You know your role, Yeah, totally. And I make him at least take a couple runs with me. Yeah. Before he laps me, Is he buying his own Epic pass or are you still buying it for him? I'm still buying for my kids. Great question. he was supposed to buy his own. Yeah. Because he is a engineer and, but the other son is still in college, so That. I'm like, okay, yes, I'm still buying everybody Epic passes. Oh, he can do some chores around the house, shovel the deck. But this is becoming like cell phones for when your kids get older, like the cell phone cut them off. It just doesn't ever get off the parent's plan. No. And I feel like Epic Pass is like approaching that for me, where if I want em to ski, I have to get it for him. But then he is I'll probably do Icon this year. And I'm like, then I get nothing. Yeah. That's not good return on investment there. No, it was, that's not good. Again, we're a sucker for that, but Yeah. It's a big deal. Yeah. But now we're all there. Exactly. why else do we live here? I know. Totally. Or one of the reasons we do. That's awesome. So if you weren't running Vsat, what kind of business would you wanna run? have you ever seen a company like, oh, I'd like to run that company, or, oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely gonna, I'm gonna bring robotic mowers to sto. I want to be a, thank God. I wanna be a. A lawnmower again. that's what I did all through college and my high school years. And I think it'd be really fun to pull up, have my robot mowers go out, do a lot of the work, and I could listen to your podcast in the car. Just send'em all over town. I've always told why not? I know they exist. They exist. Yeah. They're not quite there like yet. They can't do the whole lawn much about that. Yeah. they can't do the whole lawn in one go. I think like an acres a lot for a little robot. Yeah. But as soon as they get a drone, I could see that at, I could see that at my house. If they get the drone with the weed wacker, then I think we're, yeah, we're in the money. Yeah. And mulch and weed. Yeah. but the insurance cost, the insuring the business might just be too much. So right now it's a pipe dream, but just robot mowers. What about like robot flowers? That might be trickier. I don't know. I don't know. Dream big self-driving car. I guess I a plow. Honestly, I don't know any robots that could take, or the batteries for the temperatures we have for plowing could be really tough. Yeah. Yeah. maybe some driveway gradating and you might be able to get away with, robot. My works I love. did you see the skinning? There's new skinning skis that have a motor. No, I saw so you don't have to like, the e-bikes for Mount Mike. It's e-bike for skinning. that sounds like an e-bike. Yeah. That's not, no, that's not, that's cool. That's like destroying the sport. Do you guys have the sport is to go up. Do you guys have e-bikes? Yeah. I'll show you our e-bikes. Yeah. Mikes. Mikes. Are you gonna get one? Are you thinking about it? Not yet. I want to get to, I want, I've got two more mountain bikes to buy in my life. I figure. Nice. I got one more conventional one to go. And then an e-bike. Yeah. But I have no problem with'em. I think it's the most fantastic thing ever. Ours are not mountain bikes, to be clear. Yeah. They're, we've clarified, they're touring and we just went to the Eastern townships this past weekend in Quebec. Fantastic. And rode, 40, 45 miles. That's great. Hit a winery, go to lunch. They're awesome. Yeah. I think it's great. Yeah. And it's something that like, my wife Emily, doesn't really bike a lot. So we'll get an electric bike and come borrow ours. Come borrow'em. Love them. We'll do baby do it. Should we do a little rapid fire? Yeah. Let's go to rapid fire around with Dave. Has this been boring for you guys? Like I have no idea this, I'm in tech, literally. I don't wanna sit down your ratings. Yeah. Oh dude, it's, you're doing so much. People love the business. No, people have come up to us. They love the business ones. And a lot of people in town, they're in tech or in business, they love the business. this what this does for the Vermont economy. Yeah. The other neat businesses here, awesome. I didn't mention it, is zoa, Adriana, Terney has been, championing this cipher creatives and photographers for a lot of years, and it's just so amazing what a small team can do and build. And they tell social justice stories, but they also, provide the photography for pay to. Major publications, so really neat. Oh, yeah. Anyway, that Love you, Audrey Zu, V-I-S-U-R-A, like viora.com. VSUR a.com or.co. It's like an Instagram, but a specialized Instagram. Yeah. it's just fun to look at pictures and photography from around the world. Yeah. and the country that tells stories. So cool. Yeah. Okay. Sorry about that. No, I love the pause. I was, I've spent a lot of my career working in education and mental health and I was, was just talking about coming up here and I was like, it turns out I'm an entrepreneur for starting the podcast. Yes, that's right. so it's opened up my mind and brain. What's your biggest learning to date? Oh, geez. honestly, you touched on it, is just take taking risk, and just not feeling the need that it has to be perfect. you talk about some people coming in to V set and just being like, all right, I gotta have this perfect plan. and just being willing to make mistakes, I sense a lot of founder friction here between you two. There can be some founder friction, the audience can't see it, but you versus non eBike, like four feet apart. Yeah. Yeah. Clearly you're right? We're different people for sure. Yeah. We balance each other. No, that's good. It's a good yin and yang for sure. Yeah. It's good to have a team too. That's the other part. It's not just a solo podcast and there's the team aspect that keeps us both pushing on each other in a good way. Because you had said that, life as an entrepreneur is lonely. And I think the fact that we've had both of us is, to motivate, to bounce ideas. It's, that's helpful. and, we've v set has had chances to, expand and, go to every community, supersize it. But we chose very intentionally to keep ourselves smaller. Bigger's not. Better. It's just bigger, right? so how do we be effective? And so every three years we're looking ahead, where can we hit the target that will impact the most people and entrepreneurs, each year? And that has kept our team rather small, right? for a lot of years we had two full-time folks. we had a federal grant we've been able to use, now we have four full-time people, two part-time, just focused on our lane. And that's been that, that discipline of trying to be really effective. Good. Like expert, authentic, empathetic and trusted. Yeah. Like those are the four things that, that we want to be. And we, people tell us that they experience. And I'm we could do anything if you have those qualities. we're so blessed and fortunate and, but having that small team is, who do you want in the foxhole or who do you want to row in the boat with you? Yeah. I think, I think that's awesome. That's the secret. Yeah. And we have the same philosophy on it, so I think deep down we may have our same guiding principles, but yeah, same guiding principles, so that's where it works. Love it. Yeah. We have some fun conversations for sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. We challenge each other. I love it. I love it. Rapid fire time. Yeah, let's do it. Alright, Mike, you kick it off. All right. More overhyped. Startup buzzword. AI or crypto? Crypto. Crypto. Yeah. Better networking spot. The Alchemist or the quad. Oh, definitely the quad. Yeah. I don't know. Mike likes the Alchemist. No, the quad. You can just start talking to I, the people I love. Sundays at The Alchemy with a Seth. Yeah. Loni playing. Oh yeah. Like in a hand pour like, shit. Time me up. I, all right. Bitcoin or maple syrup. Maple syrup. Yeah. That's what I would go with. Oh, absolutely. Making investment decisions. Lots of research and feedback or go with your gut boy. it's both. Yeah. You, I gave it to you. Team tech timing terms. Yep. Yep. All right. Growing fast and breaking things along the way are building steadily and sustainably, building steadily and sustainably. Yeah. Yeah. Pitch style, 60 page slide deck or back of napkin drawing. Napkin. This is gonna be an interesting one for you. Perfect. Surf day in Costa Rica or a perfect powdered day in the Vermont backcountry. Costa Rica. You're a big surfer. Yeah. Yeah. you only get more than one run. It's true. It's about an 80 degree, 70 degree tempera. Yeah. But yeah. But you won't get a powder. All right. he picked, it's his choice, not your choice. I didn't know you. I didn't, but this isn't your rapid fire round. I didn't, I didn't know he was a surfer. dad and my wife would be me. Would be with me in the waves. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Groomer choice. Hayride Perry Merrill or nose dive. I like Perry Merrill. It's a good one. Yeah. Good choice for groomer. Yeah. Yep. Yep. All right. Bumps. Lookout. Star chin clip. I like chin clip Good. Yep. On a snowboard. Yeah. Yeah. Be my choice too. Downhill bike trail. Florence Kimer or Alza? I like going down Snake down Snake. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Going down the up you's the right time of day. Yeah. 100%. Scares the hell out of a couple people and it's just different. Sorry about that. Love that. You're good. Beer choice, focal, heady or traps. Pilsner or other? a heady topper. Yeah. Heady guy. Would you rather fund an entrepreneur wearing flannel or in full finance, bro, vest and khakis. Flannel? Of course, for sure. I know. All right. this is mine here. It's a really good one. Great questions. Okay. A better startup idea. An app that matches visiting skiers with locals who can show them around the woods for a fee or an AI agent app that answers your urgent work email and messages for you on a powder day. the letter, the a IL. Yeah. So I have a friend of mine in software sales. I'm not gonna tell you who, but he just bought this super fancy mouse that moves, moves and irregular patterns. So it's not the pattern that they can now test. It's like it goes up and down. God, because companies are tracking that. Oh really? They're making sure you're moving your mouse, that you're actually working at home. Got it. I assume so when you mentioned that unbelievable. I always thought an app that would just, keep you're busy, right? oh, hey, I'm in a meeting right now. I'll get right back to you. Just kinda keep it going a little bit. I've looked at some sort of these AI assistance sort of things and I haven't quite found one that, fits my workload or Yeah. I trust enough. Yeah. Can we'll answer wrong. We'll actually do a good job. literally all I want though is I want some way for the LinkedIn InMail conversations to end up in my Google calendar. please someone create that and make that plug in or like that is real. That's a pain point. Yeah. What's harder raising capital or playing your future work schedule around potential powder days? Raising capital. All right. Which was a better investment funding a startup in 2010, or buying a house in Stowe in 2010? Definitely buying a house. Yeah. Yep. What company would you love to see move or headquarters to? Vermont? Tesla, OpenAI or Lululemon? Lululemon. Alright. All right. Which is a bigger flex? Raising 10 million in capital or securing the Stone Hut for the best two days of the winter Stone hut. Yeah, 100%. Love it. Did you get your reservations in? I sent it in, yeah. So I never get it. I never get it. Some people always get it. my brother was on fire for a few years. Yeah. He had to mail it in and I literally, so we funded a company called, park with us. Park, park Software. Yeah. And I was explaining this to Ryland, today, the founder, I'm like, oh my God, you gotta check out this thing, Ellie, there is a better way. They don't charge anything. I'm just let's just automate this a little bit.'cause I want instant gratification. Yeah. So I always feel like my letter doesn't get there. I put it in the mail for the reservation choices and I never hear a thing every year. Did they get my letter? So you've never, ever never gotten it. really, I've done it maybe five or six times and I have, I just give out first forum when, when. Yeah. the dolans can't use it or somebody. And I know, it's fun. Do, yeah. Do you get up there at all? Regular. So usually how I do it, my brother gets it a bunch and what I do is I'll usually just get, go up at three, take a few runs, we'll skin up to the chin for sunset, have dinner, hang out, and then I'll usually just ski down. I don't even stay there. You don't even stay there.'cause I don I don't sleep. I don't sleep when I'm up there. One snore. So that's that's my stone hu experience that I prefer. That's way to do it. It is. Use it as a base. Yeah. But you do miss the sunrise and for sure like that morning, is but I'll just pretty darn special. Yeah. If there's not a snore in the group. Yeah. It can be. Alright. Think you could sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Probably. But that's usually my stone hut. Yeah. Going up to the nose is awesome, at five o'clock. Yeah. 4 35. Yeah. it's magic. I know. It's fun. Do you get it? Do you ever get the stone hunt? Not through the reservation. I know it's always been like the secondary market, Maybe crypto can help there. I don't know. That might be the only use case for it. Yeah, that's right. So we're gonna just jump into some STO stuff. Okay. how long have you been here? what brought you to sto? I was back in the day was I was doing a home inspection, helping Kristen Yardley and Marky Yardley before they purchased their house. And I heard a listing come in at the Carlson Real Estate. I was like, oh, that sounds cool. let's go look at it in Still Hollow. and where were you at the time? We were in Burlington and we were about to get married and I was like, oh my God, people are gonna give us stuff. We got no place to put it in this condo I own on, on. So we moved here on a whim. Okay. Bought the house, never went on the market. And, have been happily stuck and still hollow at that beautiful view. It's a great spot. Great neighbors for all these years. Yeah. Really fortunate. Awesome. And that was when? What year was that? 2001. 2001. So you've been here 24 years. Those changed almost a lifetime. Yeah, it has changed a lot. What do you think, do you generally pleased and positive about the changes or kind of pissy about stuff? Generally positive. I miss the quirkiness. I feel like it was a quirkier place back then and I liked that about it. It's less quirky now and a little more, more similar to other places. Yeah, it felt much different back then and had its own unique thing. So I miss that. I like that it's more year round that there's stuff going on. you go to a restaurant, it's in November. Shocking. You could in the past. They're not closed for mud season anymore. you went to high school. I'd say for me it's, I think. One of my, I don't say issues with the change, but something, a change that I'm not that psyched about is, I think last year on residence and, for example, when I was growing up, all the ski instructors lived in Stowe. yeah. All the bartenders lived in Stowe and it just gave that little extra juice and I think just fabric to the town. So I think losing that a little bit is a bummer. but with that said, we had, Tom Rogers on from still Land Trust and the development of the trail networks. And in my mind that's great development. Yeah. yeah, Katy Hill, when I grew up mountain biking, it was just rough, rugged, and that was gonna be a golf course, right? Rugged. Yeah. And then there was purchased, and Brownsville and Wiesner Woods. So the development and the trail networks for all those areas is awesome. And I think it allows accessibility to so many more people, so yeah. Pros and cons and some development is good. I know a lot of my friends work in construction, property management, and if this town didn't continue to grow, they wouldn't have thriving businesses. A lot of people I know wouldn't have jobs. So it's all that balance. So I would say those would be my two main points. Yeah. I think, I grew up in a small town in Massachusetts. Okay. It's called Littleton. And that the milk was delivered. Yeah. And then it became a high tech kind of place. And, I think it's really important to know your teachers to know The people that cut your lawn, the ski, the lefties, the business owners, the visiting execs, and there's a place for that balance of Yeah. second homeowners or new entrants. And, people that grew up here and, short term rentals in my view, have really distorted the marketplace that's starting to work out. The economics of it are taken, and I think this housing task force in town is really spot on and the things we really love about it, we're just gonna have to, prioritize a little bit more. Exactly. That's and. There, there was this 1950s comedian that I saw a clip of. She's Pearl Buck, I think her name was. She's you can always tell your age by the amount of pain you feel when you run across a new idea. I was like, oh my God. That is so I use that as like a gut check when I get Yeah. It's, to see. It's a good line. 20 years ago when you moved here, when I moved here, people were grumpy about how it's changed. How it had changed in the last 20 years. I feel like it's, there's always a grumpiness now, the last 20. It's grown a lot, I feel like, but I feel like the undercurrent, the underpinnings are still here. It's just, there's a lot of other stuff too. Oh, and the world's a high stress place. Yeah. There's just a lot more going on in ow. But the cool people, and they're still here, it's just a little harder to find. They interviewed Charlie Lorde and he said, oh man, I missed the good old days. so it's, yeah. Unavoidable. I only really miss the 7:40 AM open. Yep. Time at the mountain.'cause we knew to go 15 minutes early, but you were good for 30 minutes. That was exactly, you were good for 30 minutes. You get and then the six pack came along and Yeah, I understand why, but that blew runs, four and five because they were already track.'cause it used to be a really great, I get my five runs, I get out there and then My parking spot was open by that. I know. but we still have 8:00 AM here's the thing. We still have 8:00 AM most resorts are 9:00 AM. that would impact you be a lot of yeah, I think, a daytime uphill trail that, wasn't the toll road or whatever the toll house is, it's time to make that happen. Yeah. Yeah. Long trail. You know what I, long trails a good daytime route. I'll do that. A I had never done it until last year. It's great. Really highly recommend it. Totally Great. I don't wanna say this too loud on the podcast, but I might take that out. Great. Way out. Goes right to angel food, to chin lip. Yeah. It's a great scan. We'll do it this winter. Oh, you'll love it. snowboard, totally do a lot. Oh yeah. Oh, no problem. No problem. We're like whispering here. We're taking that out. We're gonna edit that out. Yeah, we should take that out. But yeah. Long trail. What is your hope for STO in the next five to 10 years? I hope we build, two, 300 housing units for, people that work here and raise families. that's a big deal. I think for me, that, that would be fantastic. I don't think we need a lot more developments. Everything has a cycle and a pendulum, right? it's fear and greed. Those are two tensions, and the greed is overextended. Some of those properties are now being permitted and sold and the, the economics have changed so it, it will settle again. Yeah. So I think just some entry level and mid-career mid earner. Yeah. Housing would be fantastic. Yep. I'm with you on that. Totally good goal. Alright, Dave, we're gonna wrap up. We ask all of our guests one question. If STO did not exist, does not exist in the world, where would you be living? in Vermont. I Anywhere. You can pick anywhere. Yeah. I'd, my wife won't go, but I'd live in East Burke up in Burke. Yeah, I love it up there. It's a good, but I think if we were wanted to remain a couple it would be probably NS down in Costa Rica. Yeah. Okay. like that vibe. So Love it. And actually I wanna make, we are gonna remain a couple, so I just wanna make sure there's no confusing not moving to East Per Love you, Emily. All right, thanks Dave. That thanks so much. Dave was great. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Thanks. Hope you enjoyed that episode of the Octagon Podcast. Remember to like us on Instagram and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. See you next time.